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Proposal to ban private cars from public roads

I'm not convinced doing all that is any more feasible (realistically) than what I'm proposing. And how does it make cars more accessible to the less well off? They would still have to pay the up-front purchase price at the very least, no?
That's a few hundred quid, potentially. It costs about £1000 to learn to drive, and I'm sure you don't want to skimp on that, or indeed have people zooming about in something with no financial liability.

Also, it would not have the advantage of more efficient use of resources. Most cars would still be sitting unused 90% of the time.
Efficiency of the system is not the same as reduced usage. If you got your way and eliminated car dependency, 100% of cars would be unused 100% of the time. If my car's sat at home while I bike to work, then someone else driving it is again worse.
 
I'm not convinced doing all that is any more feasible (realistically) than what I'm proposing. And how does it make cars more accessible to the less well off? They would still have to pay the up-front purchase price at the very least, no?

Also, it would not have the advantage of more efficient use of resources. Most cars would still be sitting unused 90% of the time.
It has no direct impact on manufacturers. They still sell new cars at the same price and make the same profit, including the massive 'new' premium if you like. You just happen to get the actual value of the car when you sell it on used, rather than losing the overhead to a dealer or being unable to sell privately. This means you can buy a car for a week and sell it on for almost exactly the same amount, like a hire car but with a greater barrier to entry. It's not the greatest idea or essential to anything I said, it's just an option.
 
Efficiency of the system is not the same as reduced usage. If you got your way and eliminated car dependency, 100% of cars would be unused 100% of the time. If my car's sat at home while I bike to work, then someone else driving it is again worse.

Target situation (figures illustrative only, obviously):

Now
per 100 people capable of driving:
70 own cars
on average each uses their car 1 hour per day
Result:
70 cars in existence
70 car-hours driven per day


Under my magnificent scheme
per 100 people capable of driving:
100 have access to share-car
on average each uses a share car 0.5 hours per day
Each share-car used by 5 people a day on average
Result:
20 cars in existence
50 car-hours driven per day
 
That's cheating - you've introduced an extra change in that the 70 people drive less each, which might be the case, but has nothing to do with cars sat around empty. What damage to society does an unused car do?
 
A proportion of share-cars will have child seats built in. Or perhaps there will be an allowance where people can reserve a specific car for their use for the time period where their children are of the age that they need child seats. There would be all sorts of details like this to be worked out but I don't see something like this as a big enough issue to make the system unworkable.

Also, remember that although there could be a slight added inconvenience to you as a parent who currently owns a car, there are lots of parents at the moment who have to get by without a car at all because they can't afford it. And the improved public transport system will reduce the number of journeys where a car is necessary in the first place.

I don't mind a bit of inconvenience and yes I am aware that lots of parents manage without a car but thanks for pointing that out.
 
That's cheating - you've introduced an extra change in that the 70 people drive less each, which might be the case, but has nothing to do with cars sat around empty. What damage to society does an unused car do?

It's not cheating because it's a stated aim of the scheme to reduce the amount that people drive, and I've given my reasons as to how this will be achieved.

An unused car sits around taking up space that could be used for other things. And you could argue that there is an environmental cost involved in its manufacture.

But the main point of making more efficient use, really, is that the cost is shared by more people. So instead of one car owner paying (directly or indirectly) £2500 per year (£1500 upfront costs + £1000 mileage related costs) for the use of that car, 5 people share a total cost of £4000 per year (£1500 upfront costs + £2500 mileage related costs) meaning they only pay £800 each, thus making it more affordable for everyone.

Again, figures illustrative only.
 
So what if 40 of those people want to drive to work?

Yeah, of course the logistics are going to be complicated, and stuff like the fact that lots of people tend to go to work at the same time is going to affect the actual efficiency achievable. Like I say the figures are only to illustrate the intended principle.

It's quite possible that a detailed exercise looking at numbers and stuff would reveal that you wouldn't be able to make it work in cost terms. I don't have anywhere near the necessary knowledge or tools to be able to do that. To state the obvious.

Note though that a scheme such as this would open up the possibility that charges could be related to location and time of day, and if you could encourage more people to travel off peak in this way, then you could make it more efficient. As already happens with other modes of transport.

Of course, you could potentially also achieve that with a road pricing scheme applied to private cars.
 
I should also mention that come the days of the fully automated car, my scheme would become even more marvellously wonderful. No worries about insurance and user abuse, and if there wasn't a car within walking distance you'd simply dial one up and it would come and find you.
 
It's not cheating because it's a stated aim of the scheme to reduce the amount that people drive, and I've given my reasons as to how this will be achieved.

An unused car sits around taking up space that could be used for other things.
But if it's on my drive, what then? Property is theft?

And you could argue that there is an environmental cost involved in its manufacture.

But the main point of making more efficient use, really, is that the cost is shared by more people. So instead of one car owner paying (directly or indirectly) £2500 per year (£1500 upfront costs + £1000 mileage related costs) for the use of that car, 5 people share a total cost of £4000 per year (£1500 upfront costs + £2500 mileage related costs) meaning they only pay £800 each, thus making it more affordable for everyone.
Again you have halved the individual mileages in order to do this, I assume through supposed increased use of PT. How is that reduced use compatible with reduced cost per person and overall lowering of the barriers to car access?
 
But if it's on my drive, what then? Property is theft?

In places where demand on land is at a premium, most cars aren't parked on drives; they are parked on public streets. And most cars are parked on tarmac of some kind and the more tarmac there is, the more problems we have with flooding.

These issues are hardly cornerstones of my scheme though.


Again you have halved the individual mileages in order to do this, I assume through supposed increased use of PT. How is that reduced use compatible with reduced cost per person and overall lowering of the barriers to car access?

It's all about the relative costs at the point of making a decision about a journey though.

Let's say, for average use, the cost per mile of using a car is 10p upfront costs plus 12p per-mile costs

At present, at the point of making a decision about how to travel, a car owner would have a choice of 12p per mile by car versus 15p per mile by bus. So other things being equal they will go by car.

A non-car owner will have a choice of 15p per mile by bus vs. 15p per mile by bus and has to go by bus.

Under my scheme, the cost per mile for anyone to go by car is 2p upfront costs (10p shared between 5 people) plus 12p per-mile costs, so a total of 14p at the point of decision.

Because the scheme would result in public transport becoming better used and more efficient, the cost of going by bus would reduce to 12p per mile.

So, it would still be cheaper to go by bus, but for journeys where there was not an alternative, using a car would be an option available to anyone, not just those who had forked out the thousands of pounds a year to own one as at present.

It all works out perfectly, see?
 
Yes, perfectly. So perfectly that I'm sure it will be implemented imminently.

No, wait. I don't reckon it's going to come to pass. Sorry for the mistake there.
 
I don't mind a bit of inconvenience and yes I am aware that lots of parents manage without a car but thanks for pointing that out.

I think my you breed fuck em comment was far more succinct really than teuchters long arsed explanation of the same thing ... ;)
 
It's all about the relative costs at the point of making a decision about a journey though.

Let's say, for average use, the cost per mile of using a car is 10p upfront costs plus 12p per-mile costs

At present, at the point of making a decision about how to travel, a car owner would have a choice of 12p per mile by car versus 15p per mile by bus. So other things being equal they will go by car.

A non-car owner will have a choice of 15p per mile by bus vs. 15p per mile by bus and has to go by bus.

Under my scheme, the cost per mile for anyone to go by car is 2p upfront costs (10p shared between 5 people) plus 12p per-mile costs, so a total of 14p at the point of decision.

Because the scheme would result in public transport becoming better used and more efficient, the cost of going by bus would reduce to 12p per mile.

So, it would still be cheaper to go by bus, but for journeys where there was not an alternative, using a car would be an option available to anyone, not just those who had forked out the thousands of pounds a year to own one as at present.

It all works out perfectly, see?
so you're providing a door to door service for public transport in this utopian ideal as well, well I'm sure that's going to work out fine...

oh no wait... it isn't...
 
I'm constantly striving for the GarfieldLeChat golden standard of posting clarity. Sorry if I haven't quite got there yet.

well you got the utter nonsense and complete drivel down pat in fact better than the original...

now all you need is well the heart...
 
The Streetcar schemes seem to function happily enough. I don't know exactly how they deal with this, but it seems not to be an insurmountable obstacle.

Apart from the bigger picture, which is that this will never happen, because turkeys will not vote for Christmas, surely the problem with people using a "streetcar"-type scheme would be that loads of people would all want the short-term hire vehicles at the same time?

People have to go places all at the same time - this is why we have rush-hours. This is not going to change, so you would have to provide an awesome number of "streetcars" to cope with the peak demand of people wanting to go to work / drop the kids off etc during 8am - 9am weekdays. So many in fact, that you might as well let everyone have one. ...... which would pretty much put us back where we started.

And if you live in the country, how far is the nearest "transport hub" going to be? And what if you have a baby, 2 kids that can't walk so far, and 8 bags of shopping?

Current "streetcar" schemes work because their customers are those who occasionally need a car to move some stuff from A to B. If there isn't a vehicle available at 9am, they can usually wait til 10. You'd have the Velib / Boris Bike problems of moving vehicles back to the places that they are wanted in time. Except you can't pick up 30 cars and tow them behind a little van. Unless we have Aussie-style giant road-train car transporters, which, although cool, wouldn't be practical.

When they sort the batteries out, we can all have zero emission electric cars, charged up by windmills, except when its not windy, with charging sockets in the street.

Or nuclear-powered vehicles, or something.

Giles..
 
When they sort the batteries out, we can all have zero emission electric cars, charged up by windmills, except when its not windy, with charging sockets in the street.

Or nuclear-powered vehicles, or something.

Giles..

Although I support electric vehicles, something tells me you haven't thought this through.
 
You would never need any more cars than already exist.

You are ignoring the fact that part of the idea is to create a situation where public transport can develop and provide for many of the journeys that are currently made by car. Rush hour travel is the travel that is best accommodated by public transport. In many places at the moment you will find that buses run in the peak times, because it is at these times that the operators can fill them up and make money from them, but are virtually non-existent at other times of the day. The reason a lot of people don't use the bus is because it doesn't offer them flexibility if, say they want to come home later in the evening. 75 percent of their commuting journeys could be made by bus but because the other 25 percent can't, they will get a car and then for the reasons already discussed they will end up using the car for all journeys.

If share-cars were available, it would be feasible for people to use the bus most of the time, and use the cars to fill in the gaps. Hopefully this would create a virtous circle (the opposite of what we currently have) where the rush hour buses would become better used, which would encourage the operators to extend their service, which would allow a greater proportion of journeys to be made by bus, which would encourage the operators to extend the service a bit more, and so on.

Initially, you would probably need to provide nearly as many share-cars as currently exist as private cars. But as the years progressed and public transport options became more extensive and better used, the number of cars would steadily decline.
 
My hobby horse is increasing UK Manufacturing Industry.

teuchters is banning people from using their own cars.

How many more threads like this teuchter?
 
Increase the marginal cost of using a car (fuel tax and road pricing), and use that money to subsidise and invest in PT.

Why should I and plenty of others fund PT that is totally impractical and unusable? For teuchters scheme to work I'd have to get the bus into town, hire a car, drive everything I had put in it home than take it back and be stranded coz there's no sodding buses after a certain time. To get home after 3.20 pm(ish) by PT(one bus an hour) I have to cross a busy dual carriageway, then walk a mile home in whatever weather, and I live close to the main road compared to many round here.

I don't expect a company to run a bus service for me but I DO expect to be able to come and go as I please. That's why I own a car.
 
Why should I and plenty of others fund PT that is totally impractical and unusable? For teuchters scheme to work I'd have to get the bus into town, hire a car, drive everything I had put in it home than take it back and be stranded coz there's no sodding buses after a certain time. To get home after 3.20 pm(ish) by PT(one bus an hour) I have to cross a busy dual carriageway, then walk a mile home in whatever weather, and I live close to the main road compared to many round here.

I don't expect a company to run a bus service for me but I DO expect to be able to come and go as I please. That's why I own a car.

It might be useful to actually read the bit where I explained what the proposal is and how it would work; then you'd see that I'm not suggesting you would have to do any of the above.
 
For people who live out in the sticks, they would pick the car up at the public transport hub, drive it back home, and back to a hub (or anywhere they fancied) the next time they went out.

so i still have to rely on the twice daily local bus service, to get to 'my' car, 15 miles away?
non-starter, i'm afraid
 
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