no money no honey walk the talk! Talk the walk!! Fuck you chicken, mate!!!
Proposal to ban private cars from public roads
- Thread starter teuchter
- Start date
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Looking at rush hour service on NRE:
Gomshall:
Hourly service to London Waterloo, one change, 55mins
Hourly service to London Bridge, one change, 1hr10
Holmwood:
Hourly (plus a couple extra) service to Victoria, direct, 1hr07,
Betchworth:
Hourly to London Bridge, one change, 1hr
Additional trains to Victoria/Waterloo with changes
Ockley:
Half-hourly to Victoria, direct, 1hr05, couple of additional trains to Waterloo with changes
You seem a little tetchy today Kabbes. I'm not pretending to know the area better than you (I said it was gung-ho guesswork, didn't I?)- I just thought it would be interesting to see how things might work out. You said Dorking Station "probably" served villages within a 7-8 mile radius. Looking at the map, that seemed unlikely particularly to the north and east. It seemed reasonable to expect that other stations with services to London would be used by commuters too. If you tell me that no car drivers really use those other stations in spite of this I will take your word for it.
Would you agree that the area covered by my map corresponds roughly to what might be considered a catchment area for Dorking station?
I will revise my analysis in due course taking into account your feedback.
As a commuter who does actually live a great deal closer to Holmwood station than Dorking station and who used to live virtually on the doorstep of Gomshall station, I can promise you that people who can drive go to Dorking (or Effingham Junction), they don't go from those little stations.
Dorking has at least four trains an hour into London. When you're coming home of an evening, you want to be able to go to a station that runs very regular trains, not one for which you are restricted to one an hour. Plus there is an irregularity issue -- if you have to stay late you might well find that one an hour drops to one every two hours. Meanwhile, you can drive to Dorking in 10-15 minutes. It's no contest.
And you say "1hr10", "1hr07" and "1hr05" very glibly but Dorking has trains back in less than 50 minutes. So in the time it takes to get the rare train back to Ockley, Holmwood or Betchworth, you could have got to Dorking and also driven home already. Plus you have considerably more flexibility in your travel. It's a no-brainer.
You're just not in the mindset of a rural commuter, teuchter. The stations people travel from around here are Reigate, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham, Effingham Junction and Guildford. Those are the ones with fast trains and regular trains. If people drive then they drive to one of those stations. I'm glad to hear you're willing to take my word for it. You should do so because I am, actually, right.
Dorking has at least four trains an hour into London. When you're coming home of an evening, you want to be able to go to a station that runs very regular trains, not one for which you are restricted to one an hour. Plus there is an irregularity issue -- if you have to stay late you might well find that one an hour drops to one every two hours. Meanwhile, you can drive to Dorking in 10-15 minutes. It's no contest.
And you say "1hr10", "1hr07" and "1hr05" very glibly but Dorking has trains back in less than 50 minutes. So in the time it takes to get the rare train back to Ockley, Holmwood or Betchworth, you could have got to Dorking and also driven home already. Plus you have considerably more flexibility in your travel. It's a no-brainer.
You're just not in the mindset of a rural commuter, teuchter. The stations people travel from around here are Reigate, Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham, Effingham Junction and Guildford. Those are the ones with fast trains and regular trains. If people drive then they drive to one of those stations. I'm glad to hear you're willing to take my word for it. You should do so because I am, actually, right.
Quite a lot of routes. See www.molevalley.gov.uk
The problem is the number of buses rather than the number of routes. Like I say, the buses to our village mostly operate on the basis of one per day.
Some routes are genuinely well served though. The ones along the main roads, generally. I know some people that live in villages on the main roads that don't drive at all, doing everything by bus.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I have been having a cursory read of a few reports on transport and parking in central Dorking.
eg
or this one
Both identify significant problems with congestion. They both also identify a problem of commuters parking on residential streets in the town to avoid paying for car parking. I see one of them comments that parking in the station car park cost £4 at the time of the report. Knowing this, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the capacity of the station car park reflects the actual number of commuters driving in to get the train.
Unfortunately neither report seems to attempt to give an estimate of numbers.
eg
or this one
Both identify significant problems with congestion. They both also identify a problem of commuters parking on residential streets in the town to avoid paying for car parking. I see one of them comments that parking in the station car park cost £4 at the time of the report. Knowing this, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that the capacity of the station car park reflects the actual number of commuters driving in to get the train.
Unfortunately neither report seems to attempt to give an estimate of numbers.
The station isn't particularly near the town centre. Not so near that it's a slam dunk (contrast Epsom or Leatherhead). The nearest parking is about a 5-10 minute walk. There are few residential roads that are available for parking -- I know precisely which ones they are because I make a beeline straight for them when I drive into town. They're more like a 10-15 minute walk to the station. I'd be surprised if as many as 10 cars manage to park there for the station, to be honest -- there just isn't that much room. Really, there are very very few residential streets in Dorking that are available to freely park on.
You're absolutely right that congestion is a big problem in the town. The A25 runs right through the middle of the town, leading to extensive through-traffic and the roads just aren't wide enough to cope. And the A24 goes right by it, causing congestion at the roundabout at the end of town that links them. If there was room for a bypass (there isn't, unfortunately) it would make an enormous difference.
The car park costs more than £4 per day now, incidentally. But the town's car parks cost even more than that if you were to park in them all day. And a monthly parking past brings it down to something like £3 per day. As a commuter, I honestly wouldn't consider parking anywhere other than the car park itself. Plus the car park is never totally full. There are always a small but reasonable number of spaces available at any time of day.
To put things into perspective, teuchter, there are only 17,000 people living in Dorking. The surrounding villages probably double that. So 250 people is getting on for 1% of the entire available population. It's probably closer to 5% of the working population. And I doubt that more than 1 in 4 at most of the workforce (probably more like 1 in 10) work in London, which means that 250 people would easily be 20% of the commuters.
A lot of people work from home, actually. Seriously, after a few months of living there, I know about 20 of the few hundred in our village. Of those, about 12 work and about 6 of those work from home.
There are also lots of, e.g., plumbers, electricians and so on -- people who don't work from any one particular location but travel to various locations.
As I said, I'd reckon 1 in 10 of workers at most work in London. My 95% confidence interval would be something like 4% to 25%.
I don't reckon that many work in Dorking. As I say, many work from home. Many more actually work in Epsom (like I used to), Leatherhead (like the kabbess used to), Reigate, Guildford and so on.
Probably something like
10% in London
25% in Dorking
25% surrounding towns
20% from home
20% no fixed location
It's really hard for me to just sit here and guess at this, though! Drawing broad estimates of commuters is one thing. Guessing how many travel around versus work in Leatherhead or at home is something else entirely.
ETA: Actually, I reckon the number working in Dorking is a lot lower than that and surrounding towns probably higher.
You also have things like farm work -- not sure where you're putting that. I know people employed by the game shooting industry, the farming industry, stables and so on.
Probably something like
10% in London
25% in Dorking
25% surrounding towns
20% from home
20% no fixed location
It's really hard for me to just sit here and guess at this, though! Drawing broad estimates of commuters is one thing. Guessing how many travel around versus work in Leatherhead or at home is something else entirely.
ETA: Actually, I reckon the number working in Dorking is a lot lower than that and surrounding towns probably higher.
You also have things like farm work -- not sure where you're putting that. I know people employed by the game shooting industry, the farming industry, stables and so on.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
And are they largely driving all the way to these places, or driving to the station and then getting the train, do you think?
Driving, definitely. Hence one reason for the congestion. The train is really expensive by comparison. As you pointed out, parking is about £4 per day, which is already more expensive than the fuel costs before you even pay for the ticket.
Of course, this is comparing the marginal costs of driving with the full costs of taking a train, but that's the old problem that you are admittedly trying to fix.
I'm not even sure what any of us are arguing for any more.
My original point was that my village will never be well served by such a scheme and that others will be in the same boat. So it's down to what "miss rate" you are comfortable accepting. I don't think that's going to change regardless of analysis.
My original point was that my village will never be well served by such a scheme and that others will be in the same boat. So it's down to what "miss rate" you are comfortable accepting. I don't think that's going to change regardless of analysis.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Well - at the weekend I walked from Guildford to a place on the edge of that map ^^. Abinger Hammer. There was rumour that the pub there had the most impressive Christmas decorations in Britain or something. It turned out it didn't have any. Maybe we were too early. It didn't seem to have many customers either.
The few people that were in there seemed dumbfounded that we had walked "all the way" from Guildford. I think they actually thought we were on drugs. That's car culture for you. And the walk along the road from the pub to the train station had the usual Surrey features of too-narrow footpaths and people tearing around in 4x4s.
Anyway, it certainly seemed the kind of place that will be improved once my car-share scheme is implemented.
The few people that were in there seemed dumbfounded that we had walked "all the way" from Guildford. I think they actually thought we were on drugs. That's car culture for you. And the walk along the road from the pub to the train station had the usual Surrey features of too-narrow footpaths and people tearing around in 4x4s.
Anyway, it certainly seemed the kind of place that will be improved once my car-share scheme is implemented.
Cool. Did you walk through Albury? Or a different route?
We've just moved from Abinger Hammer, incidentally. Completion on the house we're selling goes through on Friday! The other side onf AH from where you would have been though.
Did you got to Annie's tea room? Best cream tea this side of Devon. Or something.
We've just moved from Abinger Hammer, incidentally. Completion on the house we're selling goes through on Friday! The other side onf AH from where you would have been though.
Did you got to Annie's tea room? Best cream tea this side of Devon. Or something.
teuchter
je suis teuchter
Think it was closer to 10 miles actually. I'm not seriously suggesting that it would be a commuting option. It is sometimes a bit surprising how little some people walk though.
We came along the North Downs Way for most of it so I guess we went somewhere near Albury but not through it. Didn't go to Annie's tea room wherever that is.
The church at St Martha's Hill is quite impressively sited. Especially with the frosty mist on Saturday.
Have you moved somewhere far away? And do you know anything of these rumoured christmas decorations?
We came along the North Downs Way for most of it so I guess we went somewhere near Albury but not through it. Didn't go to Annie's tea room wherever that is.
The church at St Martha's Hill is quite impressively sited. Especially with the frosty mist on Saturday.
Have you moved somewhere far away? And do you know anything of these rumoured christmas decorations?
teuchter
je suis teuchter
I think I may have walked through there before, after my assault on Leith Hill a couple of years ago
By some people's idea of "the middle of nowhere" perhaps.
I fear we may have been led on a wild goose chase and this is going to have to be investigated. Or is there more than one pub in Abinger Hammer?
There's only one, but I thought it was still closed? The Black Horse. It was certainly closed for years and still closed a few months or so back.
There are three just up the road in Gomshall, one in Abinger Common and one in Sutton Abinger, which are all close by. The one in Abinger Hammer was never that nice so it wasn't a surprise when it closed.
I agree that "middle of nowhere" is a relative term. But there is nothing but trees surrounding our village of about 100 houses for quite a few miles. When you're up here, you'd think you were as isolated as anywhere else you can think of.
Leith Hill is great. Have you been up the tower? You get a great view on a clear day. Something like 17 counties, I've been told.
There are three just up the road in Gomshall, one in Abinger Common and one in Sutton Abinger, which are all close by. The one in Abinger Hammer was never that nice so it wasn't a surprise when it closed.
I agree that "middle of nowhere" is a relative term. But there is nothing but trees surrounding our village of about 100 houses for quite a few miles. When you're up here, you'd think you were as isolated as anywhere else you can think of.
Leith Hill is great. Have you been up the tower? You get a great view on a clear day. Something like 17 counties, I've been told.
Bahnhof Strasse
Met up with Hannah Courtoy a week next Tuesday
Congrats on your move kabbes.
You've very lucky that the old house in the woods in Coldharbour got burnt down, or else we'd be keeping you awake on many a summer's Saturday night
You've very lucky that the old house in the woods in Coldharbour got burnt down, or else we'd be keeping you awake on many a summer's Saturday night
teuchter
je suis teuchter
This is the pub -
http://www.beerintheevening.com/pubs/s/21/21751/Abinger_Arms/Abinger_Hammer
Beer was good, open fire nice, food a bit rubbish.
I didn't go up the tower at Leith Hill - can't remember why; either it was closed or I was too stingy to pay the entrance fee. I did take these pictures though -
I do remember it being quite a peaceful place.
I'd like that actually.
Teuchter -- I'll show you the best pubs. None of that Abinger Arms rubbish. (That is what I was calling the Black Horse, actually, though I can't remember why. There was a Black Horse sign there at some point.) That's a really old photo isn't it? Unless I'm getting confused, which is quite possible even though I've lived in the bloody place for six years.
Those Leith Hill photos are certainly familiar from daily dog walks
Teuchter -- I'll show you the best pubs. None of that Abinger Arms rubbish. (That is what I was calling the Black Horse, actually, though I can't remember why. There was a Black Horse sign there at some point.) That's a really old photo isn't it? Unless I'm getting confused, which is quite possible even though I've lived in the bloody place for six years.
Those Leith Hill photos are certainly familiar from daily dog walks
