Progressive arguments for staying in the EU

[gosub]

The Maastricht criteria are the criteria which European Union member states are required to meet to enter the third stage of the Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) and adopt the Euro as their currency (in case you hadn't noticed, the UK hasn't joined this third stage and isn't attempting to do so).

This is entirely different from the rules imposed on all EU national governments (including the UK) by the EU constitution, so I'm afraid your contribution isn't really relevant to the point that is being made.

current Article 126 stems from Maastrict, and we are bound by it. Thats why the pension age is going up

 

[gosub]

TTIP . Stop these sinister trade deals! - useful infomation both on how these deals are being conducted under EUropean framework and the efforts to block it thereunder.

Logically it wouldn't apply if we weren't in the EU and I think it unlikely any UK replacement could be done as undemocratically or opaquely

 

[ViolentPanda]

Is there a progressive argument for the CBI? What would we do without it?

It's more about what we wouldn't be able to do without it.
For example, we wouldn't be able to say "CBI? What fucking 'British Industry' ", for a start.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The mass left votes across southern europe don't figure in your tale?

edit: why did i bother?

The triumph of hope over experience?

 

[ViolentPanda]

State aids. And anything that doesn't tend toward market liberalisation.

Is that a good aids or a bad aids?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Submitted for 'irony-free post of the year'.

He has a point, though.
The Social Chapter may give a few limited worker "protections", but they're partial, and most at their base already consist of concessions to capitalism. It's entirely possible that without the Social Chapter, unions Europe-wide may have fought harder to build protections for their members and the wider populations of their individual states.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Which american workers? wtf are you on about? Many american workers have much worse wages and conditions. Much, much worse. Those at the bottom of the scale.

Which American workers have "much worse wages and conditions"? The non-unionised workers, generally.
Why is that the case? Because of the ongoing political narrative that equates trades unions and labour organisation with anti-Americanism and/or socialism and/or communism, and the century-long legislative onslaught against labour organising.

Sound like anything we're familiar with? Europe (with the Social Chapter "protections" has been heading that way for 30 years now. Even EU states with stout social-democratic credentials have reduced the protections on unions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Whatevs. Get out of the EU and it's happy time forever with the unicorns shitting out gold coins til the end if time.

Fuck this, I 'm out.

What's better, pan-European protections for labour and consumers that don't actually protect, or a degree of self-determination that at least allows a vague glimpse at the possibility of more effective worker protection?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I object to the EU. However most of the employment protection in the past 25 years has been driven by EU legislation. Of course, the UK can do that without the benefit of EU legislation but left to its own devices the UK political parties of all stripes won't improve on it but rather will just dismantle what's been done, driving wages and conditions down.

Unless we take control of our own destinies and destroy those "political parties"/shills for capital.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What's better, pan-European protections for labour and consumers that don't actually protect, or a degree of self-determination that at least allows a vague glimpse at the possibility of more effective worker protection?

EU legislation isn't worthless. Part-time workers can tell you that. It may not be that good, but it's not worthless.

As for 'self-determination', is that what handing more control to Westminster is? I don't think so. So voting for the UK to leave the EU isn't voting for self-determination in any meaningful way.

I agree with you, btw, that empowering unions to collectively bargain is the way to produce better results, not angling for top-down legislation. Somewhere like Denmark is a good example of that - where effective minimum wages are far higher without a national minimum wages as they are negotiated per sector by unions. But how does voting 'out' get the UK anywhere towards that?

 

[ViolentPanda]

EU legislation isn't worthless. Part-time workers can tell you that. It may not be that good, but it's not worthless.

I haven't used the word "worthless", so don't put it in my mouth.

As for 'self-determination', is that what handing more control to Westminster is? I don't think so. So voting for the UK to leave the EU isn't voting for self-determination in any meaningful way.

Self-determination means what it says, it doesn't say "ceding more power to Westminster". The solution is to toss the whole lot onto a bonfire.

I agree with you, btw, that empowering unions to collectively bargain is the way to produce better results, not angling for top-down legislation. Somewhere like Denmark is a good example of that - where effective minimum wages are far higher without a national minimum wages as they are negotiated per sector by unions. But how does voting 'out' get the UK anywhere towards that?

Not just unions, communities too.

 

[cesare]

Unless we take control of our own destinies and destroy those "political parties"/shills for capital.

Definitely. We should do this now.

 

[Cid]

I haven't used the word "worthless", so don't put it in my mouth.



Self-determination means what it says, it doesn't say "ceding more power to Westminster". The solution is to toss the whole lot onto a bonfire.

Generally, when throwing stuff on the bonfire, it's a good idea to make sure you're not standing downwind and holding petrol.

 

[free spirit]

That's going to hit people hard if they succeed Edit: oh, renewable energy. What's the thinking behind that?

tbh HMRC seem to have applied the reduced VAT rate for the wrong category, viewing it in the building repair category, which has something about the majority of the cost of the works has to not be equipment.... which doesn't apply to PV which is majority equipment.

What they should have done IMO is to simply treat it as energy, just energy being effectively bought in advance, no different from if someone agreed to pay for 30 years of their electricity costs up front to an energy company that would be charged at 5% VAT.

 

[free spirit]

TTIP . Stop these sinister trade deals! - useful infomation both on how these deals are being conducted under EUropean framework and the efforts to block it thereunder.

Logically it wouldn't apply if we weren't in the EU and I think it unlikely any UK replacement could be done as undemocratically or opaquely

There is a counter argument that the Germans managed to attract 250,000 to an anti-TTIP demo last November, whereas in the UK the demos so far have been more in the hundreds or low thousands.

So there'd seem to be more democratic engagement with that issue in Germany than in the UK. I'd expect a tory government would ram through a TTIP style agreement without much trouble, and far lower levels of protest given that we have the most right wing press in Europe.

 

[butchersapron]

There is a counter argument that the Germans managed to attract 250,000 to an anti-TTIP demo last November, whereas in the UK the demos so far have been more in the hundreds or low thousands.

So there'd seem to be more democratic engagement with that issue in Germany than in the UK. I'd expect a tory government would ram through a TTIP style agreement without much trouble, and far lower levels of protest given that we have the most right wing press in Europe.

What does that last link say? Did you read it before linking to it?

 

[butchersapron]

There is a counter argument that the Germans managed to attract 250,000 to an anti-TTIP demo last November, whereas in the UK the demos so far have been more in the hundreds or low thousands.

So there'd seem to be more democratic engagement with that issue in Germany than in the UK. I'd expect a tory government would ram through a TTIP style agreement without much trouble, and far lower levels of protest given that we have the most right wing press in Europe.

Have i this right, an anti eu-demo is evidence of the support for the EU by virtue of its existence?

 

[J Ed]

Another response to the OP

I emailed Noam Chomsky to ask his opinion on the EU referendum. Here's his response. • /r/ukpolitics

I'm still deciding which way to vote in the EU referendum. I appreciate how Noam Chomsky can deconstruct social concepts and political events so they can be understood more clearly. I emailed him to ask his opinion. His reply is below.

"Haven’t seen any compelling arguments for Brexit, and I suspect it will turn Britain into (even more of) a junior partner of the US. If I were voting, I’d vote to stay in. But without enthusiasm."

 

[free spirit]

What does that last link say? Did you read it before linking to it?

It says that more of the UK public believes that the UK press has a right wing bias than in any of other 6 countries in the survey.

or in short form, the UK has the most right wing press in Europe.

My point being that any movement against rightwing causes such as TTIP in the UK faces a big uphill battle in getting fair coverage in the UK press compared to in other European countries where the press has less of a rightwing bias. Which goes against the idea Gosub was floating that "unlikely any UK replacement could be done as undemocratically or opaquely".

 

[butchersapron]

It says that more of the UK public believes that the UK press has a right wing bias than in any of other 6 countries in the survey.

or in short form, the UK has the most right wing press in Europe.

My point being that any movement against rightwing causes such as TTIP in the UK faces a big uphill battle in getting fair coverage in the UK press compared to in other European countries where the press has less of a rightwing bias. Which goes against the idea Gosub was floating that "unlikely any UK replacement could be done as undemocratically or opaquely".

Wow - look at those two lines and the equal symbol between them. Or the statement that you made in your original post.

 

[free spirit]

Have i this right, an anti eu-demo is evidence of the support for the EU by virtue of its existence?

an anti-TTIP demo that was far bigger than anything that's happened in the UK was just the first example I thought of against Gosub's assertion that the UK would hold any TTIP replacement deal up to better democratic scrutiny than is happening in the EU.

The UK (ok maybe England) is a bastion of rightwing neoliberal ideology, it's infused the 2 (3?)) main English parties, and the UK press far more so than the average across Europe, so expecting that pulling out of the EU will result in the UK becoming less neoliberal / implementing less neoliberal trade deals than is the case within the EU looks like a bad case of wishful thinking to me.

 

[free spirit]

Wow - look at those two lines and the equal symbol between them. Or the statement that you made in your original post.

what's your point caller?

 

[gosub]

Total Country quorum* % of quorum achieved Signatures still required to reach quorum
AT (Austria) 142.971 13.500 1059,04% -129.471
BE 64.614 15.750 410,25% -48.864
BG 34.088 12.750 267,36% -21.338
CY 1.618 4.500 35,96% 2882
CZ 20.132 15.750 127,82% -4.382
DE 1.577.042 72.000 2190,34% -1.505.042
DK 21.066 9.750 216,06% -11.316
EE 2.901 4.500 64,46% 1.599
ES 90.868 40.500 224,37% -50.368
FI 37.378 9.750 383,37% -27.628
FR 360.227 55.500 649,06% -304.727
GB 501.819 54.750 916,56% -447.069
GR 44.788 15.750 284,37% -29.038
HR (Croatia) 10.373 8.250 125,73% -2.123
HU 20.821 15.750 132,20% -5.071
IE 17.055 8.250 206,72% -8.805
IT 72.238 54.750 131,94% -17.488
LT (Lithuania) 3.133 8.250 37,98% 5.177
LU 10.967 4.500 243,72% -6.467
LV (Latvia) 1.371 6.000 22,85% 4.629
MT 1.118 4.500 24,84% 3.382
NL 110.144 19.500 564,84% -90.644
PL 44.282 38.250 115,77% -6.032
PT 19.927 15.750 126,52% -4.177
RO 25.130 24.000 104,71% -1.130
SE (Sweden) 25.984 15.000 173,22% -10.984
SI (Slovenia) 11.705 6.000 195,08% -5.705
SK 10.528 9.750 107,98% -778
3.284.289
* What is a “country quorum”? For an ECI to be successful, a minimum amount of signatures (“country quorum”) has to be gathered in at least seven EU Member States. The EU defines this minimum number of signatures in the ECI rules according to the number of Members a country has in the European Parliament (which is an approximation to the size of its population).


UK anti TTIP sentiment is third in EUrope behind Germany and Austria

 

[redsquirrel]

what's your point caller?

That these two statements

It says that more of the UK public believes that the UK press has a right wing bias than in any of other 6 countries in the survey.

or in short form, the UK has the most right wing press in Europe..

are not remotely the same and to imply that they are is either stupidity or dishonesty.

 

[free spirit]

UK anti TTIP sentiment is third in EUrope behind Germany and Austria

where's this stat from please?

Uk seems to be joint 17th in the proportion opposing TTIP in the latest EU survey. (page 103) 23% against vs EU average of 32% against, and only 1% strongly against.

Though the question is a badly worded as it doesn't mention TTIP, just a generic EU / US free trade and investment deal.

 

[gosub]

where's this stat from please?

Uk seems to be joint 17th in the proportion opposing TTIP in the latest EU survey. (page 103) 23% against vs EU average of 32% against, and only 1% strongly against.

Though the question is a badly worded as it doesn't mention TTIP, just a generic EU / US free trade and investment deal.

ECI is closed - signature gathering continues - Stop TTIP



did try and format as a table, not a button we have and stripping back the code and entering that didn't work.

Also your page 103 link is to the downloaded copy on your harddrive (doesn't work)

 

[free spirit]

That these two statements

are not remotely the same and to imply that they are is either stupidity or dishonesty.

well, that's how Yougov titled the report, and how it was reported etc.

British press ‘most right-wing’ in Europe

ok so it's extrapolating from the 7 countries surveyed, and there might be other countries in Europe that weren't surveyed that have a more right wing press, maybe there are other surveys covering other countries that people would like to point to, but in the absence of that then it's reasonable to report what the surveyors themselves claimed.

The point still stands though even if it's just that the UK has a more right wing press than the EU average, which I think is fair to surmise when we're shown as being the most rightwing out of 7 countries surveyed (assuming that yougov weren't biased when choosing the countries to survey).

 

[redsquirrel]

The point still stands though even if it's just that the UK has a more right wing press than the EU average,

No it doesn't. You've not established that "fact" at all. All you've shown is that people in Britain rank the UK press as more right wing than is the case for other EU countries.

 

[free spirit]

ECI is closed - signature gathering continues - Stop TTIP



did try and format as a table, not a button we have and stripping back the code and entering that didn't work.

Also your page 103 link is to the downloaded copy on your harddrive (doesn't work)

ah right.

I suspect that's more down to the penetration of 38 degrees, and social media clicktivism in the UK, rather the necessarily reflecting the proportion of the population who're against it.

But the EU survey also poses the question in a way that is bound to bias the responses towards being in favour of it, by asking if people are in favour of some unspecified trade deal, rather than directly asking about the TTIP trade deal.

 

[free spirit]

No it doesn't. You've not established that "fact" at all. All you've shown is that people in Britain rank the UK press as more right wing than is the case for other EU countries.

Are you challenging the basic idea that we have a more right wing press than the average across Europe (maybe the most right wing) or is this just an argument based on semantics?

I suppose it would be more accurate to report it as the UK media being perceived as being the most right wing in relation to the population of the country in the survey, but the main point still stands.