Progressive arguments for staying in the EU

[newbie]

Capital is doing what capital must do. It's trying to integrate what was welfare with employment in order to re-activate the reserve army of labour to cut down wages, whilst attacking the social wage (that's) by reorganising it it under pressure of immigration on w/c areas.

Victories? The last of the stuff you grew up with. The residues,

you're calling me aggressive and prodding me because I had the temerity to be born before you. Again.

As for your view of capital, fair enough, you've said all that before. But it doesn't address any of the stuff I've said: specifically, why is the US trying to force TTIP on Europe if capital simply does what it must do? Why isn't Eurpopean capital imposing the same logic without external political pressure? And what's resisting both Eurocapital and TTIP, givenm that the answer is neither the British government nor the British working class?

 

[butchersapron]

There are plenty of elements that would really like rid of the Social Chapter.

See, when i said they were stuck in the early 90s this is what i meant.

 

[butchersapron]

you're calling me aggressive and prodding me because I had the temerity to be born before you. Again.

As for your view of capital, fair enough, you've said all that before. But it doesn't address any of the stuff I've said: specifically, why is the US trying to force TTIP on Europe if capital simply does what it must do? Why isn't Eurpopean capital imposing the same logic without external political pressure? And what's resisting both Eurocapital and TTIP, givenm that the answer is neither the British government nor the British working class?

Fuck off, when you tie you posts to your age and experience...fuck right off.

Because there are competing capitals. This TTIP obsession seems to blind you to that. And to ignore everything else.

Frankly, not a word of this is a reply to what i posted.

 

[8ball]

See, when i said they were stuck in the early 90s this is what i meant.

We are in a place of choosing relative evils right now.
Between differing anti-democratic directions serving their own spheres.

I think one is shitter than the other in the short to medium term.

 

[butchersapron]

We are in a place of choosing relative evils right now.
Between differing anti-democratic directions serving their own spheres.

I think one is shitter than the other in the short to medium term.

You don't know what the Eu is any more if you're defending it on the basis it supports the social chapter.

But hey, your bridge, your rights.

 

[8ball]

You don't know what the Eu is any more if you're defending it on the basis it supports the social chapter.

If I'm defending the EU then you're defending the Tories.

 

[newbie]

Fuck off, when you tie you posts to your age and experience...fuck right off.

Because there are competing capitals. This TTIP obsession seems to blind you to that. And to ignore everything else.

Frankly, not a word of this is a reply to what i posted.

I haven't done anything of the sort.

Why are there competing capitals that have imposed significantly different conditions? The logic compels on both sides of the Atlantic, and both sides of the Channel. Voters have been delivering various shades of neo-lib government and organised labour seems weak pretty much everywhere. So what accounts for the differences.

There's no obsession but I'm focussing because despite asking a number of times no-one has even attempted to answer why the US is trying to impose TTIP or how a post-Brexit British government could resist it even if they wanted to.

 

[butchersapron]

If I'm defending the EU then you're defending the Tories.

The social chapter was 25 years ago you silly cunt. This totally sums up what i was saying about lefties stuck in a past. Defend the social chapter" defend delors!

 

[8ball]

The social chapter was 25 years ago you silly cunt. This totally sums up what i was saying about lefties stuck in a past. Defend the social chapter" defend delors!

Submitted for 'irony-free post of the year'.

 

[butchersapron]

I haven't done anything of the sort.

Why are there competing capitals that have imposed significantly different conditions? The logic compels on both sides of the Atlantic, and both sides of the Channel. Voters have been delivering various shades of neo-lib government and organised labour seems weak pretty much everywhere. So what accounts for the differences.

There's no obsession but I'm focussing because despite asking a number of times no-one has even attempted to answer why the US is trying to impose TTIP or how a post-Brexit British government could resist it even if they wanted to.

Why have american workers higher wages and better conditions? With less organised labour.

No, you're shoehorning in a personal obsession that doesn't effect our discussion at all.

 

[8ball]

Why have american workers higher wages and better conditions?

Better conditions? They have comparatively high wages, but are incredibly easy to get rid of.

 

[butchersapron]

Better conditions? They have comparatively high wages, but are incredibly easy to get rid of.

What did i ask?

 

[8ball]

What did i ask?

You'll have to read back yourself.

 

[butchersapron]

You'll have to read back yourself.

It was this:

Why have american workers higher wages and better conditions?

To which you replied

Better conditions? They have comparatively high wages, but are incredibly easy to get rid of.

Which, as you can see, doesn't answer the question.

 

[newbie]

Why have american workers higher wages and better conditions? With less organised labour.

No, you're shoehorning in a personal obsession that doesn't effect our discussion at all.

and a much lower social wage, worse health care, fewer employment, environmental and consumer protections and on and on. on average, which is almost always code for ignore the poor sods at the bottom, as I'm sure you're aware. and a hell of a lot more w/c people in prison

It's clear you can't answer the questions, I can't either. There's months to go before the ref, maybe in that time someone will produce a satisfactory explanation.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why have american workers higher wages and better conditions? With less organised labour..

Which american workers? wtf are you on about? Many american workers have much worse wages and conditions. Much, much worse. Those at the bottom of the scale.

 

[butchersapron]

and a much lower social wage, worse health care, fewer employment, environmental and consumer protections and on and on. on average, which is almost always code for ignore the poor sods at the bottom, as I'm sure you're aware. and a hell of a lot more w/c people in prison

It's clear you can't answer the questions, I can't either. There's months to go before the ref, maybe in that time someone will produce a satisfactory explanation.

They don't have that - for the mass of people in employment it's far better than that. But even it it's not the idea that there is some european way of doing capital that we need to defend from the US (who has the the NHS btw?) is beyond belief after they starved greece to death is just cultural chauvinism.

 

[8ball]

Which, as you can see, doesn't answer the question.

You have a curious understanding if the matter of how easily you can be sacked doesn't constitute an important part of your working conditions.

 

[butchersapron]

Which american workers? wtf are you on about? Many american workers have much worse wages and conditions. Much, much worse. Those at the bottom of the scale.

Why did you 'empahasise' many?

OMG i had no idea.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why did you 'empahasise' many?

OMG i had no idea.

Stop being a prick then.

OMG the eu fucked over Greece. I had no idea.

 

[butchersapron]

Stop being a prick then.

Here we go.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Here we go.

No, here you've gone. You understand something those expressing concerns about worker rights don't.

And yet, you have no answer. None at all. What happens when the UK leaves the Eu to those rights currently protected by eu law?

You don't know, do you. Be honest at least and say so.

 

[butchersapron]

No, here you've gone. You understand something those expressing concerns about worker rights don't.

And yet, you have no answer. None at all. What happens when the UK leaves the Eu to those rights currently protected by eu law?

You don't know, do you. Be honest at least and say so.

They're all UK law as i posted years ago on this thread that you haven't bothered to read. All law must have been passed in Parliament to become EU law.

 

[newbie]

They don't have that - for the mass of people in employment it's far better than that. But even it it's not the idea that there is some european way of doing capital that we need to defend from the US (who has the the NHS btw?) is beyond belief after they starved greece to death is just cultural chauvinism.

you're giving a strong impression of cheerleading US capitalism and downplaying socialised European healthcare etc. Which is a bit odd.

Do we have nothing worth defending from US capital? are the pan-European social provisions mere dust, irrelevant to the w/c? Should we willingly give them up in the hope that through unfettered national sovereignty the w/c can make more substantial, more meaningful gains?

 

[butchersapron]

you're giving a strong impression of cheerleading US capitalism and downplaying socialised European healthcare etc. Which is a bit odd.

Do we have nothing worth defending from US capital? are the pan-European social provisions mere dust, irrelevant to the w/c? Should we willingly give them up in the hope that through unfettered national sovereignty the w/c can make more substantial, more meaningful gains?

We? Must this we be defended through the EU?

 

[butchersapron]

US capital in 2016, I ask you. Damn micky mouse cartoons.

 

[newbie]

We? Must this we be defended through the EU?

ok. I will try to make sure I always write 'the working class' and not 'we'.

when the discussion descends to that sort of drivel it's time for bed. good night, sleep tight.

 

[butchersapron]

ok. I will try to make sure I always write 'the working class' and not 'we'.

when the discussion descends to that sort of drivel it's time for bed. good night, sleep tight.

If you try to assume a we that i don't recognise what am i do to? Esp that shit that bascially says european capital is the best, much better than that stinky US capital. I hope you have nightmares realising what you wrote over and over.

 

[cesare]

They're all UK law as i posted years ago on this thread that you haven't bothered to read. All law must have been passed in Parliament to become EU law.

EU law is enforced by local legislation in the member states. If the member states don't pass local legislation, it doesn't mean that the EU law (directives and/or regulations) don't exist. Have I misunderstood you?

 

[8ball]

Ask why it
We? Must this we be defended through the EU?

This is really just a statement of how fucked things are.
Getting to a state of less fucked would be nice.

The EU is not a friend, but who is the more urgent enemy right now?

Seems to come down to strategy vs ideological purity, as always...