newbie
undisambiguated
the thread has moved on while I was out, but I haven't said anything about "only thing". That would be plain silly.
Progressive arguments for staying in the EU
- Thread starter Magnus McGinty
- Start date
the thread has moved on while I was out, but I haven't said anything about "only thing". That would be plain silly.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Does it do that at all?
newbie
undisambiguated
hold back capital? I don't really know or pretend to, but something appears to be.
From where I sit it appears US capital is more naked in its callous disregard for anything except immediate, short-term profit while continental style capitalism pays greater lip-service to civic society. Both exist to exploit (ruthlessly), but they have styles and modes of operation which differ and that's led to social protections and provision being better in the EU than in the US. I wouldn't say that's wholly because of the EU, but something has influenced the difference: if not the EU then what? Not the working class or the left, not in this country anyway, defeat after defeat. And why TTIP? There's some apparent resistance to it from within the EU institutions (though little or none from the UK), just as there's some pushing towards the FTT. Both examples of holding back, to some extent, Atlanticist capitalism. But don't take that as me saying it's the main aim of the EU project, clearly it's not.
Don't suppose that answers the question but it'll have to do. Your view?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
So is there a real capitalism and a fake one?
US workers have higher wages and better living conditions on average than euro workers.
if you're not going to say that it's the EU that's provided the things that you mention as boons then why mention it or them? Of course it's the historical weight of the unions and the post war deal, and the ability of the working class to force those deals well into the 90s. Not genes or national character. If not, what else?
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
lay off the booze and go to bed.
if you're still thinking this type of crap in the morning give yourself a good shake and don't talk to anyone or post anything until you calm down.
get a fucking grip of yourself for fucks sake.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
He's been calling the SNP Nazis for ages.
Cid
Proper break this time
This is completely true (except the Nazi bit) but totally irrelevant from the perspective of the newly independent nation.
The only point of mentioning them here were that they were the ones who explicitly argued that anything that improved the quality of life of the working class postponed the revolution.
(And look what they turned into - arch-neoliberal propagandists. There's a huge thread on that... can't remember what it's called. Search for "spiked"?)
coley
Well-Known Member
It did a canny job here for long enough, and could do again,but it will be a struggle, right enough.
I suspect that you can still do them if you are creative with the Impact Assessment.
It's more a matter of the immense usefulness of EU membership to member state governments.
"We must|cannot do X because Brussels says so."
Classic example was something to do with retaining who-phoned-whom data.
Her Majesty's Government: "Sorry, we have to do that because Brussels is forcing us to
"Me: "But you fuckers wrote the Directive that says you have to. I've seen the drafts and they have "Whitehall" running througn them like a stick of rock.
"Rhetoric.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Ok. Personally I can't remember them arguing that point but there you go. I haven't heard anyone in the left argue that the basis for a no vote in the EU referendum is that a yes vote would improve the quality of life for working people and hence delay the revolution either. But thanks .
You of all people have been around long enough and observed keenly enough... I'm disappointed in you.
coley
Well-Known Member
I suspect that you can still do them if you are creative with the Impact Assessment.
It's more a matter of the immense usefulness of EU membership to member state governments.
"We must|cannot do X because Brussels says so."
Classic example was something to do with retaining who-phoned-whom data.
Her Majesty's Government: "Sorry, we have to do that because Brussels is forcing us to
Me: "But you fuckers wrote the Directive that says you have to. I've seen the drafts and they have "Whitehall" running througn them like a stick of rock.
Rhetoric.[/QUOTE
Steel, shipbuilding, even coal mining (FFS) etc, all still going strong in the continental EU but dead as a DODO in the UK, yet the financial sector and associated 'service industries ( and associated minimum wages) are booming in the UK.
Vote out, then shoot the bastards!
Turn it around a bit: what would have to happen for EU worker protections to be overturned?
1) The EU Commission would have to be persuaded to write a proposal. (And they're a damn sight better at telling trade unionists like me what they're thinking about - and asking what we think - than is Whitehall.)
2) Either a super-majority or (for some proposals) every single member state government would have to accept it in the EU Council.
3) The EU Parliament would have to pass it.
So your democratic forms are (1) lobbying; (2) doing politics to make sure that there isn't an overwhelming majority of far-right national governments; (3) doing politics to make sure that there isn't an overwhelming majority of far-right Members of the European Parliament, and (3a) lobbying those that are elected to make sure all, including the right-wingers, understand they're in deep doo-doo if they do the wrong thing.
If we fail on (2) and (3) we, the people of the contient, are a bit fucked in many ways.
If it were a UK-only matter, all we have to do is lose one election - whoops, we did - and the only people who'll listen to anything like (3a) are in the House of Lords
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Or be Greece.Turn it around a bit: what would have to happen for EU worker protections to be overturned?
1) The EU Commission would have to be persuaded to write a proposal. (And they're a damn sight better at telling trade unionists like me what they're thinking about - and asking what we think - than is Whitehall.)
2) Either a super-majority or (for some proposals) every single member state government would have to accept it in the EU Council.
3) The EU Parliament would have to pass it.
So your democratic forms are (1) lobbying; (2) doing politics to make sure that there isn't an overwhelming majority of far-right national governments; (3) doing politics to make sure that there isn't an overwhelming majority of far-right Members of the European Parliament, and (3a) lobbying those that are elected to make sure all, including the right-wingers, understand they're in deep doo-doo if they do the wrong thing.
If we fail on (2) and (3) we're a bit fucked in many ways. If it were a UK-only matter, all we have to do is lose one election - whoops, we did - and the only people who'll listen to anything like (3a) are in the House of Lords
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Look at this shit above, that's why it means nothing. It's not interlocking defence of rights it's an interlocking defence the use of bureaucracy. It's disgusting anti democracy in the raw.
coley
Well-Known Member
Or Italy, mess with us and you get an unelected Trokia to administer your country's financial affairs.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Is this your job now then? If so, why not say it? Which union? One in the pro-austerity ETUC? Declare your interests. Or do you just mean unionist, in which case see the previous words.
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butchersapron
Bring back hanging
All them rights. But i live under a bridge.
Because it's not. I'm still a lay activist. I have nothing to declare. I wouldn't say "unionist" for fear of self-defamation by association with the Orange Order.
I know nothing of a "pro-austerity ETUC". Link please? Or is it just an expression of your disappointment that ETUC didn't force the EU Commission to tell the IMF and ECB to fuck off?
newbie
undisambiguated
because that's what you asked about.
are you championing US capital now, because it delivers higher living standards on average? Little or no safety net, social health care, welfare, protection, but plenty of prisons and it delivers on average? Which capitalism is fake and which real?
not in this country, the w/c hasn't been able to force anything significant since what, sometime in the 70s onwards? So gains since then, given they weren't delivered to British workers by Tory/NuLab governments out of the goodness of their hearts, did they come because of the overall strength of European organised labour? Gains and protections like TUPE or the Working Time Directive, which is probably the best known of the lot, and was opposed by the British government with yet another opt out to placate British capital. What are the chances of resisting an assault on them in the post-Brexit period?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Do you think that i am or do you do thinking i'm questioning your stuck in the 80s-90s view of capital?
The residues of those victories. Your eu is looking to wipe them out.
Each law is british law now btw.
newbie
undisambiguated
pls explain your uptodate view of capital in terms a mere mortal like me can understand.
residues of victories? British law. come off it, Cameron is constrained by the EU, a post-Brexit PM with a working majority won't be.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Capital is doing what capital must do. It's trying to integrate what was welfare with employment in order to re-activate the reserve army of labour to cut down wages, whilst attacking the social wage (that's) by reorganising it it under pressure of immigration on w/c areas.
Victories? The last of the stuff you grew up with. The residues,
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
8ball
Decolonise colons!
There are plenty of elements that would really like rid of the Social Chapter.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What do you think that is?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I think you have access to Google.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I believe that you have access to a mind to think about the results read them and have a think. Then maybe say something.
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