Progressive arguments for staying in the EU

[gosub]

It's dismal right enough.

The framework of demands from US capital is laid out plainly enough with both TTIP and P(acific)TP. Investor 'rights' trump public policy at all levels of their domestic arrangements, and they insist on exporting that arrangement worldwide.

As you say the current process is opaque and undemocratic so we have to guess which national governments are pushing which way, but there are hints:



The UK with its special relationship is already the Atlanticist bridgehead, the EU country militarily, politically and economically most closely aligned to Washington and Wall St. Post-Brexit indyUK would be in greater competition with the EU for profitability based inward investment, but with a government made up of Leave campaigners (in whatever alignment) - cue clear push that it's in national best interests to go further in liberalisation, light touch regulation and the rest.

None of us knows what will happen. Not all of us think the US economic, social and regulatory model is admirable. IMO we're likely to get some form of TTIP come what may, but an independent UK will get a much nastier version than rumpEU.

I can't say you are wrong, sadly. I'd add Farage and a lot of UKIP to those who'd sign up to it. But fighting it wouldn't be the shadow boxing it is now.Current President of US saying deal with an out UK may buy us some time, but 1 he won't be there and 2 politician s say stuff to influence things and do different when events go against.
But OUT would be the spanner in the works to the relentless drive towards global corporatism, that could be built on. IN isn't.

 

[newbie]

I can't say you are wrong, sadly. I'd add Farage and a lot of UKIP to those who'd sign up to it. But fighting it wouldn't be the shadow boxing it is now.Current President of US saying deal with an out UK may buy us some time, but 1 he won't be there and 2 politician s say stuff to influence things and do different when events go against.
But OUT would be the spanner in the works to the relentless drive towards global corporatism, that could be built on. IN isn't.

You're not wrong either It's dismal, which boot to be crushed by. I have, perhaps, slightly greater faith in internationalism from the bottom up than in any UK government, that is I think social democratic European working class and civil society acting together(ish) is a greater impediment to the corporations than current and probably future politicians. And that within continental Europe there is more of that influence than in any significant forces in this country. But that's just faith, not reliable certainty.

This is only one of the aspects of the overall debate, but it's quite an important one. I rather hope the mainstream will turn their attention to it at some point.

 

[youngian]

re the thread title, has this one been done yet?

If we leave then we're leaving a trade block where free trade is balanced at least to some degree by social and environmental protection, with freedom of movement for all citizens within the block, and with at least a degree of democratic representation and scrutiny via the European Parliament.

We would be leaving that, but would remain within the WTO, so would essentially remain fully signed up to the worst of the neoliberal free trade rules that we're objecting to from the EU, but with a body that has no social or environmental protections, and specifically excludes them from it's remit, and without any democratic representation to that body, and we'd lose the clout within the WTO to stand up to it in any meaningful way.

Using the leverage of the world's largest single market to implement common environmental, social and consumer protection legislation is a democratic aspiration as far as I'm concerned. To others, it is apparently interference from unelected bureaucrats. Like Nigel Lawson, it doesn't matter to him how rich and powerful his class is it will never be enough for him.

 

[J Ed]

This is real

 

[Favelado]

They've taken all our fish.

 

[DotCommunist]

thats the eurovision entry for next year sorted then

 

[J Ed]

They've taken all our fish.

f-i-i-ishhh

 

[Artaxerxes]

thats the eurovision entry for next year sorted then

Thanks, I have a cold and the mess I just made laughing at this is going to be hell to clean up.

 

[free spirit]

Using the leverage of the world's largest single market to implement common environmental, social and consumer protection legislation is a democratic aspiration as far as I'm concerned. To others, it is apparently interference from unelected bureaucrats. Like Nigel Lawson, it doesn't matter to him how rich and powerful his class is it will never be enough for him.

agreed.

For me the issue with free trade agreements, particularly the WTO, isn't that we shouldn't have trade agreements, it's that those agreements should be used to level up the world's social and environmental and human rights protections, rather than to level them down to the lowest level / over ride or ignore them completely. Alongside the democratic deficit issue.

Dumping the EU would be a seriously retrograde step in that process IMO.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

So are we agreed now that to halt climate change we need to ditch democracy?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So are we agreed now that to halt climate change we need to ditch democracy?

Nope. We need the exact opposite. Who are the major blockers of action on climate change?

But it's a massive assumption, and one I think is hugely questionable, to say that ditching the EU gives the UK more democracy. In what way? Any specific examples you can give?

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Nope. We need the exact opposite. Who are the major blockers of action on climate change?

But it's a massive assumption, and one I think is hugely questionable, to say that ditching the EU gives the UK more democracy. In what way? Any specific examples you can give?

Well for a start we at least know the names of our enemies when it comes to domestic politics. Which is a pre-requisite for democracy I would have thought. Decisions have of course always been made behind closed doors and in dark smoky rooms, but the EU takes this to a whole new level. I can't imagine where or how to begin forming a cross-continent political movement of any sort to wrestle control back into the hands of communities.

 

[youngian]

agreed.

For me the issue with free trade agreements, particularly the WTO, isn't that we shouldn't have trade agreements, it's that those agreements should be used to level up the world's social and environmental and human rights protections, rather than to level them down to the lowest level / over ride or ignore them completely. Alongside the democratic deficit issue.

Dumping the EU would be a seriously retrograde step in that process IMO.

Dim Kipper Suzanne Evans on TV last night was at a loss as to why more of the left are pro EU now then in the 1975 referendum; "there was much less legislation back then it was just about trade."

 

[butchersapron]

Nope. We need the exact opposite. Who are the major blockers of action on climate change?

But it's a massive assumption, and one I think is hugely questionable, to say that ditching the EU gives the UK more democracy. In what way? Any specific examples you can give?

Haven't you just done a switch between the EU and democracy.

 

[J Ed]

another response to OP, the AWL are pro-remain

 

[J Ed]

WTF is levelling up? Do they want Britain to be a level 65 Paladin or something?

 

[laptop]

WTF is levelling up? Do they want Britain to be a level 65 Paladin or something?

Harmonising at the highest level of protection found in any member state.

 

[murphy1970]

One of the best progressive arguments for staying in EU is the group of right wing loonballs leading the campaign for Brexit. The harsh reality is that the Brexit arguments are not going to be articulated by the Socialist Party or various fellow travellers in the No2eu umbrella.
The argument is what it is, and unfortunately it is predictably being led by a combination of grievance mongering UKIP types and the usual suspects on the Tory right. Any attempt by the left to push a left-wing spin on this is doomed to fail in my opinion.
The left wing case for leaving, largely the old Bennite argument about the Alternative Economic Strategy will be drowned out by thinly veiled xenophobia about Germans and not so thinly veiled racism about immigrants.
If Brexit wins it won't be the end of the world and the good fight will go on, but at least in the short to mid-term it will mean a massive shot in the arm for those on the right of the political spectrum.
I'm woefully ignorant about European politics, and genuinely interested in what the left are saying in Europe. I know that the Greek population, despite the appalling bullying from the troika and punishing austerity imposed on them, remain pro-EU and was wondering if this is the case throughout the EU. Do most socialists, with numerous reservations back the EU or is it even an issue anywhere outwith the UK?

 

[Riklet]

There isnt a single left voice Ive heard in 5 years in Spain, with serious economic misery anf bullshit abounding, voting for or pushing for leaving the EU. It just isnt regarded as a credible alternative by the majority.

As terribly as the EU has behaved since 2008, the consensus remains on reform and remaining to push the direction left. Im sure there are left eurosceptics and I bet the anarchists and far left here are not in favour of the EU at all, but Spain has benefited a huge deal from Europe. And most people see more positives than negatives, for the moment.

That said, if there is more austerity in Greece, who's to say the majority wouldnt start backing Grexit as an option.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Using the leverage of the world's largest single market to implement common environmental, social and consumer protection legislation is a democratic aspiration as far as I'm concerned.

Seems a bit odd to put 'leverage' and 'democratic' in the same sentence. It's because of leverage that the EU can inflict horribly lopsided trade agreements on poorer countries, in the same way that the US is trying to do to Europe via TTIP.

 

[youngian]

Send your kids off in the morning with Ready Brexit

 

[DJWrongspeed]

What happens say if Brexit win. Johnson is PM and starts withdrawl proceedings. Tory ratings plummet amidst economic down turn. Come 2020 Labour/Lib dem form a new government, would they take us back in ?

The amount of column inches wasted on Trump (it's not even the US elections yet) when as Murphy above points out we, the public, need to know far more about European politics and how they will respond to a vote to leave.

 

[DotCommunist]

the lib dems are finished, nobodies forming a coalition with them, the lying octocunt cheats.

 

[youngian]

What happens say if Brexit win. Johnson is PM and starts withdrawl proceedings. Tory ratings plummet amidst economic down turn. Come 2020 Labour/Lib dem form a new government, would they take us back in ?

Not with Corbyn as leader they won't but Johnson will end up negotiating a Norway deal with includes free movement in everything but name and budget contributions; the two trump cards Vote Leave are playing to support Brexit.

I've been asking voters concerned about EU free movement's impact on wages and infrastructure what their Plan B is if they lose the referendum. Corbyn's ideas to combat social dumping and infrastructure expansion caused by rapid population movements have been well received. It will also sort out those who have genuine concerns and racist fuckwits who have no real interest in labour market and infrastructure issues.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Not with Corbyn as leader they won't.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. Labour did pretty damn well in the locals.

 

[youngian]

I wouldn't be so sure of this. Labour did pretty damn well in the locals.

Labour held up in what could loosely be described as university/knowledge economy towns in England with a younger liberal/left middle class demographic but other than that Labour's results were dire.

 

[ItWillNeverWork]

Labour held up in what could loosely be described as university/knowledge economy towns in England with a younger liberal/left middle class demographic but other than that Labour's results were dire.

Yeah, dire.

 

[Coolfonz]

There isnt a single left voice Ive heard in 5 years in Spain, with serious economic misery anf bullshit abounding, voting for or pushing for leaving the EU. It just isnt regarded as a credible alternative by the majority.

As terribly as the EU has behaved since 2008, the consensus remains on reform and remaining to push the direction left. Im sure there are left eurosceptics and I bet the anarchists and far left here are not in favour of the EU at all, but Spain has benefited a huge deal from Europe. And most people see more positives than negatives, for the moment.

That said, if there is more austerity in Greece, who's to say the majority wouldnt start backing Grexit as an option.

If Spain tried to leave it might be Sexit.

 

[goldenecitrone]

If Spain tried to leave it might be Sexit.

Possible, but I don't Espexit.

 

[Jeremiah18.17]

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