Politics for a dummy

[Groucho]

SWP stands for Socialist Workers Party who are a left wing group who seem to spend most of their time arguing with other left wing groups about the minutae of policy decisions they made in 1997 and fighting over who has interpreted the writing of Karl Marx in the most accurate way. I of course could be being grossly unfair.

New Labour : see above.

I am a member of the Socialist Workers Party. Tiny left-wing sects engage in abstract polemic about the minutae of decisions taken by the forerunners of the SWP in 1950. The SWP however, tends to get on with organising alongside others (principally those on the left who are to our 'right' politically - i.e. those who have illusions that capitalism can somehow be reformed/patched up).

Yes, there are arguments over Marx but not at ther forefront of activity.

Organising in coalition against the war, against fascists and racists, for trade union rights etc and organising a left electoral challenge to New Labour.

Right wing = smelly Tories, Blairites, conservatives. Those who think the robbery of capitalism and the barbarism of imperialist conquest and murder are justified.

Left wing = sexy socialists and fighters for freedom. Those who believe that things can be changed for the better.

The right-wing of the left-wing hope for gradual change that won't scare off the bosses, look for compromise and therefore fail. That is the problem with Labour that leads to the dominance of Tories like Blair.

The 'far-left' believe that capitalism needs to be overthrown by democratic revolution and replaced with something nicer. Perhaps production democratically controlled to meet people's needs and desires and not to satisfy the greed of the few.

The far-left of the far-left (known as the 'ultra-left by the far-left, but the far-left are called ultra-left by the soft=left) are sectarian nit picking holier than thou fundamentalists who spend all their time denouncing everyone else.

The right-wing of the right-wing are confrontational hardline Thatcherites. The 'far-right' is the term usually used to refer to Fascists like the BNP. However, the BNP claim to be neither left nor right but a third way. Blair also talked about a third way.

Meanwhile liberals sit in the middle of the road getting run down by both sides. Not to be confused with Liberal Democrats who are really quite right-wing. Liberal in terms of social policy can sometimes be quite soft-left. But in economic policy Liberal refers to the right-wing of the right wing.

Left and right originate from the French revolution. Those who were more radical sitting onn the left, those of amore pro-status quo conservative persausion sat on the right.

The Communists arose out of left aspirations and a left-wing revolution in Russia that failed. The Communist regimes were undemocratic disctatorial and far from socialist. Thet were thus left-wing by label but right-wing in practice.

 

[waverunner]

*sobs*

 

[Tokyo]

I read Animal Farm. I know all about Communism

Yep, it is a good book, although there is a little more to communism than that. It's a good allegory for how the ideals of communism in the Soviet Union were destroyed by Stalin, despite the resistance of Trotsky. Orwell himself was a committed socialist with respect for Marx and Lenin.

 

[shagnasty]

*takes a deep breath*

Okay, calm now


The Queen makes speeches, public appearences and that, in theory she could block any legislation she wants, choose a Prime Minister other than the one we've elected or dissolve parliament. The chances of her getting away with any of that without substantial military force behind her (i.e. in the event of a military coup) aren't brilliant though.

if she did use them powers the first thing a new government would do was take them of her.but saying that she sacked gough whitlam in aussie

 

[In Bloom]

Yep, it is a good book, although there is a little more to communism than that. It's a good allegory for how the ideals of communism in the Soviet Union were destroyed by Stalin, despite the resistance of Trotsky. Orwell himself was a committed socialist with respect for Marx and Lenin.

Or alternatively, a book about how the 'ideals' of communism are as irrelevant as any other set of ideals in the face of class interest. I'm not a big fan of Orwell, but he wasn't exactly 100% uncritical of Trotsky.

 

[In Bloom]

So she doesn't do anything then?

Pretty much.

And you'd do well to ignore Maggot, he smells of wee.

 

[tbaldwin]

I appeal to all ye on this forum.. I haven't a clue when it comes to UK politics (or any politics really but lets stick to the UK for now).

Please can someone give me a brief synopsis of certain things and if I have any questions along the way.. please help me out? I really want to understand these things. Some stuff I do know already but want it clarified in the most succinct way possible (please please please). Start with the very basics:

- Left/right - what's what, what do they stand for?
- Newspapers? Which ones are left/right?
- Which countries does the uk really not get along with politically?
- What are the rules on voting in a general election in the UK?

Pretty pretty please, thank you x

Hi yeah...

New Labour ... Fairly competent well meaning and suspicious of the general public.
Tories.....Traditionally pantomine villains....Think the Sherrif of Nottingham.....Hate the Proles......but after losing 3 in a row decided to cuddle up to people in green sweaters etc... secretly still despise the general public...
Lib Dems.....Led by the kind of headmaster all the kids took the piss out of....Lost in their own little world..... Not really too aware of the general public....
The far left.....Self righteous......divided......hopeless......dishonest.....Hate the general public.

 

[tbaldwin]

The 'far-left' believe that capitalism needs to be overthrown by democratic revolution and replaced with something nicer. Perhaps production democratically controlled to meet people's needs and desires and not to satisfy the greed of the few.

Ha Ha Groucho you is a marxist comedian........about as funny as that twat Mark Steel........

 

[tangerinedream]

Pretty much.

And you'd do well to ignore Maggot, he smells of wee.

weeist.

 

[waverunner]

Hi yeah...

New Labour ... Fairly competent well meaning and suspicious of the general public.
Tories.....Traditionally pantomine villains....Think the Sherrif of Nottingham.....Hate the Proles......but after losing 3 in a row decided to cuddle up to people in green sweaters etc... secretly still despise the general public...
Lib Dems.....Led by the kind of headmaster all the kids took the piss out of....Lost in their own little world..... Not really too aware of the general public....
The far left.....Self righteous......divided......hopeless......dishonest.....Hate the general public.

Sheriff of Nottingham is something to do with Robin Hood?

Proles?

Is there such a thing as an unbiased explanation of politics?

 

[bluestreak]

Is there such a thing as an unbiased explanation of politics?

no, but you'd be better off not trying to learn from tbaldwin.

try someone saner!

 

[TremulousTetra]

SWP stands for Socialist Workers Party who are a left wing group who seem to spend most of their time arguing with other left wing groups about the minutae of policy decisions they made in 1997 and fighting over who has interpreted the writing of Karl Marx in the most accurate way. I of course could be being grossly unfair.

New Labour : see above.

you are being grossly unfair. It is mostly the retired SWP, or the ones with nothing better to do, who bother to argue with other left-wing groups. If you read the other left-wing groups more carefully you would find they criticise us for not debating the minutiae. (I am retired by the way, but even I find the discussions of which you speak tedious in the extreme. )

 

[TremulousTetra]

I appeal to all ye on this forum.. I haven't a clue when it comes to UK politics (or any politics really but lets stick to the UK for now).

Please can someone give me a brief synopsis of certain things and if I have any questions along the way.. please help me out? I really want to understand these things. Some stuff I do know already but want it clarified in the most succinct way possible (please please please). Start with the very basics:

- Left/right - what's what, what do they stand for?
- Newspapers? Which ones are left/right?
- Which countries does the uk really not get along with politically?
- What are the rules on voting in a general election in the UK?

Pretty pretty please, thank you x

do you have an MP3 player, if you do you could do a lot worse than listen to some of the stuff from this place when you are on the bus etc.
http://www.resistancemp3.lpi.org.uk/

 

[Groucho]

Doubt everything!

Is there such a thing as an unbiased explanation of politics?

Of course not! The first thing to ask about any supposed unbiased explanation of anything is whose interest is behind it, where is the writer coming from? Always be especially sceptical of anyone who claims to be unbiased.

 

[waverunner]

Of course not! The first thing to ask about any supposed unbiased explanation of anything is whose interest is behind it, where is the writer coming from? Always be especially sceptical of anyone who claims to be unbiased.

So what about textbooks?

 

[Groucho]

So what about textbooks?

They will be biased, yep. Doesn't mean they are a waste of time. You just have to be aware of the bias.

 

[tangerinedream]

So what about textbooks?

There was or is a really approachable book on the parliamentary system by Terrance Dicks (who irc also wrote a fair few Dr Who books) - It was something I really enjoyed reading when I was 16ish. Won't help you with understanding of the contemporary political landscape but will with the British political history.

There are of course, many, many very thick textbooks and academic works on the topic as well.

There is also 'today in parliament' on R4 which is a nice overview (imo, the best of those available as it focusses not on analysis, but actually lets you hear the debates themselves) of what's been happening in the (deep breath... tests rusty A level knowledge....) legislative (commons) and regulatory (lords) arms of the government as well as rounding up action from the select comitees which have met at that time.

I wish I could be bothered to listen to it more often.

I think I am wrong about legislative and regulatory

 

[Haller]

Trying to be as impartial as I am able:

As things now stand, all mainstream British political parties agree on a range of issues that used to be dividing points between left and right:

a) membership of the European Union;
b) membership of Nato, and a foreign/military policy shaped by alliance with America;
c) a primarily market-based economy, with the exception of social services;
d) a safety-net approach to social services: health, education, pensions and payments to the disabled and out-of-work are provided by the State at a fairly basic level, but individuals are entitled to buy a higher level of provision if they can afford it;
e) a taxation level of somewhere around 40-45% of the nation's income;
f) an economic policy centred on achieving low inflation as the primary goal;
g) an employment policy centred on job-creation as the primary goal, rather than working conditions.

These used to be the battle-grounds of domestic politics but are now - and probably for the immediate future - the common ground between Labour, Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. Differences between these three parties are therefore now matters of nuance rather than philosophy, but even that implies greater divisions than can confidently be said to exist right now, since the Conservatives have yet to declare their hand.

This consensus is broadly shared by all major media outlets, except for two points of disagreement where those newspapers that are seen as being right-wing (Telegraph, Times, Mail, Sun) argue for:

a) greater control over immigration;
b) less involvement by the State in the lives of individuals.

It is possible that these issues, together with environmental issues, will become a new battle-ground for a left-right split, but at present they aren't because the policy positions of the major parties are so closely aligned.

There are fringe groups who dissent from this consensus (ecologists, socialists, fascists), but in the electoral and social landscape of modern Britain they stand no chance of success whatsoever.

There is also a substantial and growing section of the population who ignore politics altogether. Whether this is because they dissent from the consensus, or because they feel disillusioned with the entire process, or because they feel that things are broadly jogging on alright, is not entirely clear; probably all three.

 

[Gmart]

SWP stands for Socialist Workers Party who are a left wing group who seem to spend most of their time arguing with other left wing groups about the minutae of policy decisions they made in 1997 and fighting over who has interpreted the writing of Karl Marx in the most accurate way. I of course could be being grossly unfair.

New Labour : see above.

Despite some protestations against this synopsis, i must admit that it does ring true. Everytime one tries to discuss issues rationally with Marxists (or SWP) they do start tend to start talking about minutae which has frankly NO relation to the real world.

Even more ironic is that Popper effectively exposed Marx as wrong and authoritarian. Most followers ended up applying force to get their way. Thus communism always seems to end up as authoritarian, because people refuse to do things the way they 'should'.

Thus Popper went towards his arguments for the 'Open Society'.

The Tao Te Ching

The moral man does something,
and when no one responds
he rolls up his sleeves and uses force.

 

[tbaldwin]

Sheriff of Nottingham is something to do with Robin Hood?

Proles?

Is there such a thing as an unbiased explanation of politics?

1 Yeah but they didnt like each other.

2 Working people etc

3 No....But mine is the best explanation your gonna get(he said modestly) and its heavily and openly biased against the twin forces of darkness, toryism and undemocratic elitist hypocrites who claim to be socialists...

 

[rhys gethin]

Waverunner - the present system, capitalism, is based on profit and turns all 'things' into commodities - stuff to be sold - and almost all people into 'hands' - things to be hired and fired at will. We are either meat in a meat-market, or wolves. It produces hunger, racism, slump, global warming and war, and it is supported by all the major political parties in Britain because all the media support it, whether they call themselves 'Left', Right' or 'Dog's Breakfast'..

The only group that can overthrow the system is the working class, the proletariat, without which it couldn't function, because it has to exploit them to work at all. When this class grows restive, some of the politicians, briefly, go through the motions of defending it, and there are a few tiny groups who have plans to change the system. When this happens we get fascism or whatever, and war.

We are all brought up to believe in 'common sense', which says things are as they are and CAN never be changed - and the vast majority of people are well-trained to parrot this nonsense unthinkingly, all day and every day, or write books like 'Animal Farm'. This is ideology. You can study various versions of it on this board.

 

[tbaldwin]

The only group that can overthrow the system is the working class, the proletariat, .

But as the majority of working class people are for policies that the establishment from the Tory party to the SWP and self styled anarchists oppose, nobody much really supports that idea.

 

[rhys gethin]

But as the majority of working class people are for policies that the establishment from the Tory party to the SWP and self styled anarchists oppose, nobody much really supports that idea.

Quite so. Read what I said about ideology. Are you actually in favour of slumps, global warming, racism, fascism and war? Of course you are! You don't vote against them, do you? QED.

 

[Hi-ASL]

Left/right - what's what, what do they stand for?
Left: Labour; Right: Conservatives. None of the other parties have a cat's chance in hell of getting elected, and are thus totally irrelevant (especially the far-left ones, which are populated mainly by gobby, hygienically-careless but well-meaning students).

- Newspapers? Which ones are left/right?
Left: The Guardian; The Independent; The Mirror (purveyor of broad left politics to the working man since time immemorial. Students hate it.). Right: All the others.

And that's all we've got time for, folks.

 

[DrRingDing]

double post

 

[DrRingDing]

Yep, it is a good book, although there is a little more to communism than that. It's a good allegory for how the ideals of communism in the Soviet Union were destroyed by Stalin, despite the resistance of Trotsky.

LOL! Trotsky was an opportunist gobshite who would of been twice the cunt as Stalin given half the opportunity.

 

[tbaldwin]

Quite so. Read what I said about ideology. Are you actually in favour of slumps, global warming, racism, fascism and war? Of course you are! You don't vote against them, do you? QED.

er when did i do that then? Sounds like an interesting referendum.

 

[waverunner]

Just checking in to say I'm not ignoring you or have forgotten this thread but I just got home from work (read: hell) and I saw the amount of info that has been added (which is appreciated!) and my brain exploded. I will be back with a fresh mind soon x

 

[rhys gethin]

er when did i do that then? Sounds like an interesting referendum.

Don't you vote in elections then? Wise man!

 

[Gmart]

Are you actually in favour of slumps, global warming, racism, fascism and war? Of course you are!

Are you suggesting that you have some permanent solution to these issues? It is always easier to go on about the obvious problems, but do you have a solution which does NOT include forcing people to do what YOU think they SHOULD do, oh moral man?