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Political polling

With the usual caveat about Anthony working for YG...here's his snap judgement written the day after. It's obviously brief and a little rough but gets to the nub of the methodological challenges facing the pollsters:-

I’ve only had a couple of hours sleep so this is a very short comment on lessons from the polls at the election. The two best performing traditional polls seem to be those from Survation and Surveymonkey. Survation had a one point Con lead in their final GB poll, Surveymonkey had a four point lead in their final UK poll. The actual lead is 2 or 3 points depending on if you look at UK or GB figures. Congratulations to both of them. While it wasn’t a traditional poll, YouGov’s MRP model also came very close – it’s final GB figures were a four point lead (and some of the individual seat estimates that looked frankly outlandish, like Canterbury leaning Labour and Kensington being a tossup, actually turned out to be correct).

Looking across the board the other companies all overstated the Tory lead to one degree or another. The actual share of the Tory vote was broadly accurate, rather it was that almost everyone understated Labour support. I have a lot of sympathy with Peter Kellner’s article in the Standard earlier – that to some degree it was a case of pollsters “trying too hard”. Companies have all been trying to correct the problems of 2015, and in many cases those changes seem to have gone too far.

A big gulf between pollsters that many commented on during the campaign was the attitude to turnout. The pollsters who were furthest out on the lead, ComRes, ICM and BMG, all used methods that pumped up the Tory lead through demographic based turnout models, rather than basing turnout on how likely respondents said they are to vote. This was in many ways a way of addressing an issue in 2015 polling samples that contained too many of the sort of young people who vote, weighting down young turnout (and turnout among working class respondents, renters, or less well educated – different pollsters used different criteria). This wasn’t necessarily the wrong solution, but it was a risky one – it depends on modelling turnout correctly. What if turnout among young people actually did rise, then pollsters who were replicating 2015 patterns of turnout might miss it. That may be what happened.

That said, one shouldn’t jump to conclusions too quickly. It may be a case of how demographic turnout models were applied (by weighting the whole sample to match 2015 recalled vote and then separately weighting different demographic groups up or down based on likelihood to vote there’s a risk of “double-counting”). Most importantly, the YouGov MRP model and the Surveymonkey survey both based their turnout models on demographics too, and they both got the election right, so clearly it’s an approach that has the potential to work if done correctly.

Personally I’m pleased the YouGov model worked, disappointed the more traditional YouGov poll had too big a lead… but that at least gives us something to learn from (and for most of the campaign the two showed a similar lead, so rolling back some decisions and learning from the model seems a good starting point).
 
Although you have a point here, of sorts, your comment is a bit contradictory.

Either they have a huge lead and Labour "significantly closed it" or they didn't and the polls were wrong. It can't be both.

Unless you're saying they had something like a 10pt lead, not 20? Think the final result was 2.5% lead to Tories.

Even if that's true, blowing a 10 pt lead in 6 weeks is ridiculous.
I'm just making the point that many of the polls that gave the Tories a lead of 20+ points in the 6 weeks running up to the election (e.g. Ipsos Mori at 23% on 21st April, ICM at 22% on the 22nd April) were still giving large leads the day before the election (Ipsos Mori 8% on 7th June, ICM 12% on 7th June).

Given that we know the actual gap ended up on 2.5%, I think it's fair to say that the gap was never as large as 20+ points because presumably the methodological inaccuracies were present for companies like ICM, Ipsos Mori etc. throughout their polling in the run-up to the election, rather than only in their final polls.

As Raheem points out, the difference between the polls and reality was based on turnout, meaning firstly that polling companies need to devise a model to take into account potential turnout more effectively (Survation were most accurate and had a poll question based on likelihood to vote), and secondly that Labour had a larger core of supporters whose willingness to vote hardened as the campaign went on. I suspect the raw data before adjustment supports this theory.
 
Given that we know the actual gap ended up on 2.5%, I think it's fair to say that the gap was never as large as 20+ points because presumably the methodological inaccuracies were present for companies like ICM, Ipsos Mori etc. throughout their polling in the run-up to the election, rather than only in their final polls.
It depends on what your poll is measuring. Are you trying to measure what % of people say they will vote X or what % of people will vote X?

I think before/at the start of the campaign there could have easily been ~20pp more people saying they'd vote Tory than Lab, so from that respect the polls could have been sampling the population correctly. But once the election was called and people began thinking about it many people went back to Labour, as they were always going to do.

Basically people aren't very good with hypotheticals and they interpret polls in different ways, the poll above that puts Labour in the lead is an excellent example, I can quite believe that's an (relatively) accurate sample, but I think if there was another election tomorrow it'd be closer than that. In part people are answering the question 'Who would you vote for' with 'Teresa May is a wanker'.
 
It depends on what your poll is measuring. Are you trying to measure what % of people say they will vote X or what % of people will vote X?

I think before/at the start of the campaign there could have easily been ~20pp more people saying they'd vote Tory than Lab, so from that respect the polls could have been sampling the population correctly. But once the election was called and people began thinking about it many people went back to Labour, as they were always going to do.

Basically people aren't very good with hypotheticals and they interpret polls in different ways, the poll above that puts Labour in the lead is an excellent example, I can quite believe that's an (relatively) accurate sample, but I think if there was another election tomorrow it'd be closer than that. In part people are answering the question 'Who would you vote for' with 'Teresa May is a wanker'.
I've been at Download festival for the last week. They showed the BBC coverage in the cinema tent there all night, in front of a raucous cheering crowd of young heavy metal fans (knowing Download, largely from the north and midlands I should think). Got talking to a lad from Middlesbrough who said exactly this - that he knew people who'd said they wouldn't vote Labour again etc etc but when it came to it they couldn't vote Tory. They walked into the booth and heard their old mum/dad etc shaking their head and saying how disappointed they were in them and so forth.

Tribalism does matter. Takes a lot to pull people away from ingrained behaviour and even then they don't always follow through.

Incidentally, the only group that night who didn't seem overwhelmingly pro-Labour were the Scots who seemed largely SNP. They weren't happy.
 
Is this a good thread to point out that the tories probably didn't blow a 20+ point lead? The fact is that their lead was never as big as people thought it was in the first place, because the polls were all being weighted incorrectly.

The final gap in the election was a couple of percentage points, and although Labour significantly closed it over the course of the campaign, the polls being so misleading in the the first place are probably to thank for May thinking she had it sewn up and calling the election so early.

Looks like YouGov had the lead at ~10pt (need to go to the link to see the relevant chart)
 
survation got it as 73.8% in the 18-34 age bracket.
But then they got the proportion of voters who voted in total as being 83.9% when the reality was 69%, so something was obviously amiss.
 
I hear Alton Towers are opening a new ride called 'British opinion polls 2017'

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Reminds me of 1992 - Tories scraped in and almost immediately (though not the following week admittedly) crashed in the polls, never to recover.

Major still managed five years - hopefully the fact that May doesn't even have the small majority he did means they won't even make five months
 
I know this isn't the US where they seem to have an opinion poll ready for every possible event but it would be interesting to see some sort of approval rating for how the Maybot has handled the last couple of days.
 
Survation have Labour on 44 and Cons on 41. I just can't wrap my head around how they're still above 40% after this past couple of weeks. And the fact she's actually been getting lots of negative press, which hasn't been seen for a very long time.

It's going to be a damn tough fucking battle.
 
Survation have Labour on 44 and Cons on 41. I just can't wrap my head around how they're still above 40% after this past couple of weeks. And the fact she's actually been getting lots of negative press, which hasn't been seen for a very long time.

It's going to be a damn tough fucking battle.
Makes me worried that whoever replaces her is gonna wipe the floor with Corbyn :(
 
Survation have Labour on 44 and Cons on 41. I just can't wrap my head around how they're still above 40% after this past couple of weeks. And the fact she's actually been getting lots of negative press, which hasn't been seen for a very long time.

It's going to be a damn tough fucking battle.

I was thinking the same thing. Still, it's early days yet, and the lasting damage for the Tories has yet to be done. Still, if Corbyn's "baggage" with the right-wing media is influencing enough people to stick with the Tories, it just underlines the need for further reform in the Labour party.

Get that nomination threshold among MPs down from 15% to 5% and the party can stave off sabotage by the right-wing of the PLP. Ensure that any successor can be selected from the left-wing of the party and carry on the current programme. At the end of the day, it's not just about Corbyn, it's about the long-term future of the party, as I'm sure he'd agree.
 
once the tories inevitably betray the brexiters by having to agree to some sort of transitional arrangement (like norway) for an indefinite period then a chunk of their support may well desert - possibly back to ukip. It will also bring the tory civil war back out into the open.
On top of that - if the economy continues to slide (again - hello brexit) more support will ebb away.
 
Excellent data here on the surge for the conservatives (the more working class people in a constituency the higher their vote) and the labour surge (the more middle class, remain, students in a constituency the higher their vote. Ditto for ethnic minority voters).

Under Corbyn labour are building a coalition of younger, better educated, middle class, pro EU people:

Does the working class need to ask for its Labour Party back?

Don't really buy their analysis and the agenda is very transparent - they're being careful to chose the numbers and comparisons to suit their agenda, particularly in the anti-Corbyn digs in the introduction to the article (Tory lead in seats over Corbyn being higher than under Brown - without the explanation of the collapse of other parties giving them that lead, and the situation in Scotland which has been influenced by factors other than Corbyn). Also the analysis appears to focus on vote share rather than total votes, so not necessarily representing a collapse in votes - more to do with the collapse of UKIP and where those votes have moved, which will reduce the share but not necessarily the number voting Labour.
 
Excellent data here on the surge for the conservatives (the more working class people in a constituency the higher their vote) and the labour surge (the more middle class, remain, students in a constituency the higher their vote. Ditto for ethnic minority voters).

Under Corbyn labour are building a coalition of younger, better educated, middle class, pro EU people:

Does the working class need to ask for its Labour Party back?

I can't open the article so apologies if it is addressed within, (in China, my vpn on my laptop won't work because the hard drive is damaged and it thinks the system time is wrong, and my phone doesn't have the vpn password autosaved and the reminder is sent to my gmail which is blocked... only here another month so not going to bother sorting it out) but could this not also be explained by age rather than class? Younger people are far more likely to have a higher education level, and more likely to move towards economically active regions for jobs etc - London is the youngest part of the country for this reason.

A lot of people who may be seen as working class by profession or education became homeowners through right to buy. This demographic are probably skewing the figures.
 
Don't really buy their analysis and the agenda is very transparent - they're being careful to chose the numbers and comparisons to suit their agenda, particularly in the anti-Corbyn digs in the introduction to the article (Tory lead in seats over Corbyn being higher than under Brown - without the explanation of the collapse of other parties giving them that lead, and the situation in Scotland which has been influenced by factors other than Corbyn). Also the analysis appears to focus on vote share rather than total votes, so not necessarily representing a collapse in votes - more to do with the collapse of UKIP and where those votes have moved, which will reduce the share but not necessarily the number voting Labour.

I pointed towards the data and not the analysis. What is abundantly clear from all of the emerging data is that the biggest surge towards labour was middle class and not working class.

Age, ethnicity and remain were also factors. There is also a split between the cities and elsewhere.

I accept the number of people aged 18-30 in higher education or who have been through is higher now and therefore who is categorised as middle class needs further analysis. But it's absolutely clear - the people voting Corbyn were not those in the left behind deindustrialised areas or the youth not benefiting from further or higher education or their families for that matter.
 
But it's absolutely clear - the people voting Corbyn were not those in the left behind deindustrialised areas or the youth not benefiting from further or higher education or their families for that matter.
So which are the constituencies you are referring to here that did not get an increase in the Labour vote? Because whilst I saw some areas in which the Conservative vote went up more than the Labour vote, I can't recall on the night a single constituency in which the Labour vote failed to rise.
 
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