Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
if only articul8 would use that as his tagline.
Political Compass 2015
- Thread starter Argonia
- Start date
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
it suggests that the ideology is latent in an element of the membership, at the very least!
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Are you denying that forms of collective ownership in Nazi Germany, for example, are "reactionary"?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Of course they wouldn't publish public documents about aryan supremacy - but its clearly part of the ideological basis of their movement (just as there's a socialist legacy that's still actively present in the Labour party even though it's not often publicly avowed)
The ideological basis of the BNP isn't based in "Aryan" supremacism, it's based in white supremacism and Euro-nationalism. The white supremacism doesn't mark a desire to liquidate non-whites, but a desire for separatism. They're cunts, but they're not Nazis, and don't draw their "separate but equal" ideology from Nazism.
Aren't you supposed to be well-educated? This is political ideology one-oh-fucking-one!
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It suggests that the ideology is latent in a member. That's ALL it does.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
you don't think an element would quite happily liquidate Jews?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
and we are meant to believe that's an entirely contingent circumstance, unrelated to his membership of the organisation?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
There is no "somewhat neoliberalised version of social democracy". All there is, is neoliberalism over-written with a thin veneer of ameliorationism. Most of the policies that made post-war Britain a social democracy have been resiled from or eroded by the state. Most of the artifacts of social democracy are being dismantled and handed over to the corporations.
You're living in a circle-jerking fantasy land.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You appear to have a poor understanding of neoliberalism and those who facilitate it. The "Mansion Tax", for all the Commentariat have windbagged about it, isn't a threat to neoliberalism, so of course it's allowed to be considered - it barely causes a ripple in the pond of wealth.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I'm saying that what a Miliband government would set out to achieve was to adapt social democratic institutions (to the extent that they still exist - like the NHS), to a wider neoliberal framework *rather than* see them "dismantled and handed over" at quite the same rate. Of course this is not sufficient, and generally entails further attacks. But it's not the same as an outright promotion of neoliberalism for its own sake.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
I'm sure an element would. Are you claiming that such an element is dominant? Because that's the only way your "Nazi" claims stand up. Otherwise, the BNP are no different to the Conservative Party in being right-wing and including a minority of anti-Semitic cuntrags.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No, we're meant to not make assumptions based primarily on our preconceptions and prejudices. Prove your claim and we might get somewhere, otherwise you're just singing the SWP/UAF "BNP are Nazis" song that makes so many non-aligned (to the SWP/UAF) anti-fascists roll their eyes.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
It's worse, because it gives people false hope of a new dawn, then sneaks neoliberalism in anyway. That you can't see that tells me that you either have the political nous of a dead cat, or are as politically-amoral as Tony Blair.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
The question of Aryan vs White Supremacy is not germane to the point I was making, namely that the fascist state control of production cannot be considered "to the left" of pro-free market/private property neoliberals. They are not opposites.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
are you saying that all forms of collective ownership in germany between 1933 and 1945 were in your view reactionary?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I haven't done an exhaustive study of all such forms, but in the main they were, certainly.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Why can't it be considered "to the left"? Is corporatist quasi-democratic control a la Italy more "right-wing" than the combination of "oligarchy and robber-baronage with a dab of amelioration" that we've got. Look beyond your own narrow definitions of "left" and "right", and stop kidding yourself that it's all as simple as you like to make out.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
This is a silly argument - the same one that said the creation of the welfare state/NHS were damaging because it reconciled people to the continuation of capitalism
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Read Tooze's "Wages of Destruction", Bracher's "The German Dictatorship", or a host of other scholarly works that deal with the economy and economics of Nazism. Co-operative forms of ownership in small businesses were most often along early mutual lines. Hardly reactionary, and something that neither the Nazis nor the corporates liked. Some were based on old guild systems that were reactionary, but German labour, between the second half of the 19th century and Nazism, was the most heavily unionised and co-operatively-based in Europe.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
So I'm a Strasserite?
Read up on the economic implications of Italian fascism. I suggest de Grand's "Italian Fascism". What was "quasi-democratic" about it, was that it attempted to co-operativise agricultural production (Italy's main industry at the time) to the benefit of both the state and the peasantry.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
If you believe that's the same argument,you're either even more stupid or even more dishonest than I'd previously thought.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
probably the same sort of things which are quasi-democratic in the labour party
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
there are no limits to either his stupidity or his dishonesty.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so you cannot name a nationalised british industry which was or is a reactionary form of collective ownership. you're an empty vessel and politically bankrupt.
the button
out on the kocker
Socialist Appeal seem to be having some SWP-style difficulties right now....
https://peacetothecottageswaronthepalaces.wordpress.com/
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I read most of the introductory blurb then lost the will ... what's happened?
danny la rouge
I have a cheese grater in the dishwasher.
What, rape apologists run what's left of the show, cover up abuse, and blame the victims?
I tried reading the letter, but zoned out, I'm afraid. (Who teaches these people prose?)
It's being discussed on the SWP thread as well
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