Police tactics/reaction to 'illegal' Raves

[ste9]

Excellent advice in the post. There are two approaches to the police. The one described isn't guaranteed to work but the vast majority of officers, the vast majority of the time will not interfere with something which isn't pissing off the entire neighbourhood and leading to dozens of complaints. The alternative - everyone starts having a go, things start getting thrown, etc. - invariably DOES result in reinforcements being called and people getting nicked, kit getting confiscated, etc.

(This advice also works in routine dealings with the police - get in their face and you'll get a far worse reaction than if you don't. It's called human nature ... )

No doubt. We will certainly have a police liaison (Plus a backup. One of them is likely to be me : - /)

I'm still not sure about having one person to take the wrap though. Can we discuss this? What is likely to happen if they can't find a single person who is responsible for organising the event? If they're told it just kind of happened spontaneously, and that everyone there helped to set-up. What if the rig is literally owned by everyone there? (Groups of people can own and share things).

Are you saying the fact that they wouldn't be able to arrest someone is likely to annoy them so much that....?

 

[free spirit]

Bear in mind that raves are illegal under the CJA. Refusing to leave when the cops say so tell you to is a criminal offence. This applies to all attendees.

the rest of your post is correct, but this bit is actually a common misunderstanding.

it's only parties that are likely to cause serious distress to the local community (or words to that effect).

ie. if you have a party fucking miles from anywhere, size your rig accordingly, and make sure there's enough parking for everyone, and basically there's no chance of them getting any complaints then the CJA doesn't apply.

you can still be done for ents without a license though unless you can make a very convincing case that it was a private birthday party that just got out of hand or something, but you'd have to be a very good blagger / have it very well set up in advance to make that defence work.

 

[Supine]

*sigh*. It's not a minefield. Stop making things up and pretending that they're true. You don't have the facts. We've done risk assessment. Plus, the MOD land is only one potential site.

'making things up'. YOU told us about the explosives signs!

I'm trained in risk assessments so know full well that the assessment relies totally on the compatencies of the people involved in making them. You know nothing about running a party, let alone a less than legal one, so how can you assess the risk to ravers of a party in a minefield with smoke grenades going off...

To complete the picture you must let us know about the cliff face just to the side of the site. That'd add a nice touch

If its only one potential site then move on. Or give up

 

[Supine]

ie. if you have a party fucking miles from anywhere, size your rig accordingly, and make sure there's enough parking for everyone, and basically there's no chance of them getting any complaints then the CJA doesn't apply.
[/SIZE]

I got a S63 about 15 miles form the nearest house once. The paper wasn't signed and the lone cop never entered the party site. On the way out the only rubbish left were the hundreds of S63 notices

 

[free spirit]

Chance. It's all about probabilities. I let my kids ride around in cars. Chance of being in a road accident? Relatively high (look at the statistics). I let my kids climb trees. Chance of falling out of a tree and breaking neck? Relatively high. Chance of being blown up on this site? Very, very low.

you really are missing the point.

even if there are no unexploded munitions on the site, the mere fact that there are warming signs up will GUARANTEE that any copper stumbling across the party will stop it immediately, and the police and council will throw the book at you.

this would happen even if you have had the site fully checked by experts independantly and had signed documentation to that effect (though that would probably count in your favor).

you also open yourselves up to the use of additional laws to prosecute you - eg. Reckless Endangerment

The courts have held that reckless behaviour can be linked to conduct capable of causing danger to the public, even if the danger cannot be specified. In Normand v Robinson and another (1994 SLT 1051) a case in which the accused organised a rave in a condemned building, the court found that this amounted to recklessly endangering the lieges (those who attended the rave).

now the party we did which did get hit hard by the riot police was held in a building that had condemned building notices on the outside - which was apparently the main reason that we got busted so heavily. We didn't get done for it though because we'd done our research in advance and knew that the dangerous building notice only related to some outbuildings that had been knocked down, plus we'd spent 3 days preparing the building to close off any unsafe bits, and make the place entirely safe.

so even though we knew for a stone cold fact that the building was safe, the simple fact there were signs on the outside of the building saying it was dangerous was enough for the police to send in 40 riot police to clear the building.

you have warning signs from the MOD saying there are unexploded munitions on the site - there is no way any copper in his right mind would allow you to carry on partying there. If they did, and something did happen then the police would be up in court themselves for reckless endangerment, and probably corporate manslaughter for allowing the event to continue.


is that enough explanation for you?

 

[snadge]

No doubt. We will certainly have a police liaison (Plus a backup. One of them is likely to be me : - /)

I'm still not sure about having one person to take the wrap though. Can we discuss this? What is likely to happen if they can't find a single person who is responsible for organising the event? If they're told it just kind of happened spontaneously, and that everyone there helped to set-up. What if the rig is literally owned by everyone there? (Groups of people can own and share things).

Are you saying the fact that they wouldn't be able to arrest someone is likely to annoy them so much that....?

If you all start being smart arses, they'll set the dogs on you.

plain and simple, fuck with the law and you'll wish you hadn't, I know what you are aiming to do which may be possible but until you win in a court, maybe years later after the event, all your lives are going to be shit and you better hope your cash don't run out.

 

[free spirit]

I got a S63 about 15 miles form the nearest house once. The paper wasn't signed and the lone cop never entered the party site. On the way out the only rubbish left were the hundreds of S63 notices

well then their use of the cja probably wasn't legal.


this is actually the reason why the first question you ask is have you had any complaints... if they say no, and then go onto try to use the CJA, you can use the absence of any complaints as pretty clear evidence that your party is not causing a disturbance, and therefore the cja doesn't apply.

 

[ste9]

Ok the first step is to have a police liason person to hopefully stop it getting to the stage where someone has to take the rap for it.

however if this fails, and they're threatening to impound the rig unless someone owns upto it what are you going to do?

stand there and tell them nobody organised it, then the police will simply impound the rig and keep it until someone turns up to collect it - or impound the van if it's obvious which van it came in / do a check on the owner of the van etc.

The van will be long gone. The rig is owned by everyone. If the rig is taken, the liaison will turn up on behalf of the whole group to recover it.

basically it'll end up coming back on whoever owns the rig, plus they could finger print the rig once they've impounded it and any of your crew who have any kind of a record wil get pulled in for it... or they can pull anyone who's dj'd as there is case law stating that a dj is 'materially involved in the organising of a rave', so anyone carrying record bags could be nicked or lose their record bags.

Everyone owns the rig. Everyone's finger prints are all over the rig.

Ah. Problem with the DJ's. I did not guess they could be held responsible. One radical solution would be to place the DJ off-site and let them DJ remotely. linked via video. Of course we could always just play recorded sets, this is a bit lame but...?

Also possible to use 100% digital DJ's. (No record bags. laptops are disposable. Personally I prefer them, anyway). Could they really pin the whole thing on the DJ? (will be checking this with legal team)

bottom line is there are unwritten rules to this game of cat and mouse, one of which is that if you take the piss and stick the rig back on / turn it up after being told not to, and they have to come back out to shut you down - then the very least they need is a sacrificial lamb so they can show that they've done their job and someone is going to be punished for it.

basically just don't try to be clever cunts about it - you think you're the first people to have tried that line with the police? Every police force in the country has been dealing with raves for 20 years, and they know the law and how to used it if you piss them about a shitload better than you.

they also have pepper spray, batons, riot shields etc. if it comes to it, and have no problem with trashing kit.

Not sure. I'm tempted to try and be clever cunts. We have money, and we have some very good lawyers. Plus we'll be video tapping any police activity, plus EVERYONE will be very well drilled in how to behave (as much as possible, anyway : )

Why don't I speak to the lawyers? I do. But they have no idea how the police will react. That's why I'm talking to you guys.

basically I'm giving you the benefit of my experience, and you've got another 5-6 at least who are also very experienced in throwing free parties all telling you the same thing.

btw the police also have no problem nicking several van loads of people for drunk & disorderly or obstruction of a police officer or any number of other offences if it comes down to it.

A lot of people say it can't be done simply because it hasn't been tried before.
The people will be told not to antagonise the police. If they nick people, we'll be filming it. And they'll have our full (free) legal support (if they didn't do anything stupid and were nicked unfairly).

Thanks for your time, FreeSpirit. Nice to get some signal over the noise.

 

[free spirit]

Have ravers ever used smoke grenades at parties? I know we're going into the realms of warfare now, and that probably isn't good. Just curious. If they can't see the ravers then they can't attack them. I imagine a large crowd and the lack of visibility would terrify the police. I suppose the army would get involved. Any precedents?

what would happen - dunno for sure, I never tried it, but going on experience the police would see the smoke bombs as good enough reason to call in all available units, get out the riot gear and return to batter the fuck out of anyone who's not been sensible enough to leave.

oh yeah, and they will give you fair warning - 5 minutes to leave the area etc. except they'll do it from a megaphone / chopper so there's no way anyone near the speakers will hear it, but legally they've given you fair warning and will have videoed themselves doing it to ensure they have the evidence they did things legally if you ever try to take them to court for beating the shit out of you.

tell you what, if you only take one piece of advice from this thread make it this. Do not allow yourself to be the police liason person, get someone sensible to read this thread and do it, because you are liable to wind the police up and fuck the entire thing up. Trust me, I'm a good judge of character - stay in the background and find someone else to talk to the police.

 

[ste9]

you really are missing the point.

even if there are no unexploded munitions on the site, the mere fact that there are warming signs up will GUARANTEE that any copper stumbling across the party will stop it immediately, and the police and council will throw the book at you.

Even if 1000+ people have turned up? Won't the police think it's more dangerous to try and shut it down than to let it run. (they will know themselves that there is no danger from munitions)

 

[ste9]

'making things up'. YOU told us about the explosives signs!

What I said was exactly this:

There are no explosives on the site. The signs only went up fairly recently. Kids used to play there. Locals walked their dogs there. There have already been smaller parties on the site. There is strong evidence that it is not used for military exercises.

It's not a minefield, got it?

 

[ste9]

what would happen - dunno for sure, I never tried it, but going on experience the police would see the smoke bombs as good enough reason to call in all available units, get out the riot gear and return to batter the fuck out of anyone who's not been sensible enough to leave.

oh yeah, and they will give you fair warning - 5 minutes to leave the area etc. except they'll do it from a megaphone / chopper so there's no way anyone near the speakers will hear it, but legally they've given you fair warning and will have videoed themselves doing it to ensure they have the evidence they did things legally if you ever try to take them to court for beating the shit out of you.

tell you what, if you only take one piece of advice from this thread make it this. Do not allow yourself to be the police liason person, get someone sensible to read this thread and do it, because you are liable to wind the police up and fuck the entire thing up. Trust me, I'm a good judge of character - stay in the background and find someone else to talk to the police.

Sorry? Have we ever met? I have no idea who you are other than 'free spirit' on u75.

 

[snadge]

It's not a minefield, got it?

Due to pre erected signs warning that it is, in the eyes of the law it is a minefield, plain and simple.

proceed with caution.

 

[snadge]

Sorry? Have we ever met? I have no idea who you are other than 'free spirit' on u75.

the person that gave you the best advise you will ever get.

 

[free spirit]

*bangs head on desk*

The van will be long gone. The rig is owned by everyone. If the rig is taken, the liaison will turn up on behalf of the whole group to recover it.



Everyone owns the rig. Everyone's finger prints are all over the rig.

Ah. Problem with the DJ's. I did not guess they could be held responsible. One radical solution would be to place the DJ off-site and let them DJ remotely. linked via video. Of course we could always just play recorded sets, this is a bit lame but...?

Also possible to use 100% digital DJ's. (No record bags. laptops are disposable. Personally I prefer them, anyway). Could they really pin the whole thing on the DJ? (will be checking this with legal team)

will be checking what with what legal team?

you actually think you've got a legal team with a better understanding of the law regarding raves than me, detective boy, and the rest of the people on this thread?

sorry mate, but show some fucking respect - I and the others on this thread have earned it, we've been there and done it for fucking years, you from the sounds of it have a very short, steep learning curve ahead of you before your rig gets impounded on your first party, and several of your crew get big fines / sent down.

and while I can't remember the exact precedent for DJ's being viewed legally as being 'materially involved in the organisation' - I can guarantee you it exists because that was how they ended up busting me - and I read through the case law trying to find a hole in it, and there wasn't one... well actually I thought it was about 50/50 that I could successfully argue the point on semantics, but fuck all chance that a magistrate would look at it like that, so I took the caution as the best option.

Not sure. I'm tempted to try and be clever cunts. We have money, and we have some very good lawyers. Plus we'll be video tapping any police activity, plus EVERYONE will be very well drilled in how to behave (as much as possible, anyway : )

Why don't I speak to the lawyers? I do. But they have no idea how the police will react. That's why I'm talking to you guys.




A lot of people say it can't be done simply because it hasn't been tried before.
The people will be told not to antagonise the police. If they nick people, we'll be filming it. And they'll have our full (free) legal support (if they didn't do anything stupid and were nicked unfairly).

Thanks for your time, FreeSpirit. Nice to get some signal over the noise.

sorry, but what exactly are you saying hasn't been tried before?

you think the idea that everyone owns the rig, nobody's in charge, everybody's in charge is new?

it's not, this is like going back in time 10 years and being a fly on the wall at the first meeting to pull our free party crew together.

take a look at norfolk to see the results of the kind of line you're taking, then look at the places where parties that are as big or bigger than the ones in norfolk have been going on for 20 years with virtually no major problems with the police, and ask yourself what it might have been that made these areas different.

golden rule is don't start fights you can't win, back off, deflect, live to party another day or you'll not just fuck it up for yourselves, you'll fuck it up for every other crew in your area.

 

[ste9]

You know nothing about running a party, let alone a less than legal one, so how can you assess the risk to ravers of a party in a minefield with smoke grenades going off...

You have no idea who I am. You have no idea WHAT I know and/or don't know. You have no idea WHO I know. You have no idea who I work for.

Again, stop making things up and pretending that they're true.

 

[snadge]

golden rule is don't start fights you can't win, back off, deflect, live to party another day or you'll not just fuck it up for yourselves, you'll fuck it up for every other crew in your area.

word.

Fucking it up like that gets 2 results, the law on your arse and every fucker else as well.

personally and I wish I could say this to your face, ste9 your a fuckwit.

 

[snadge]

You have no idea who I am. You have no idea WHAT I know and/or don't know. You have no idea WHO I know. You have no idea who I work for.

Again, stop making things up and pretending that they're true.

OMG, we have an ego trip.

 

[Kuso]

not an official asbo, was a bit odd as it was done by a council licensing officer that I actually know quite well from legit stuff, so it was more done as a formal caution followed by warning that they'd throw the book at me if I was even seen near a warehouse party again in newcastle (plus loose any future council events work, which at the time had been a fairly good money earner for me)

they'd have let me off if I'd given them the names of the people who'd done it as well... grrr *shrugs*

big ups to you on that! Seriously, I've known too many people over the years who have after spouting that 'you never tout' have turned grass on their mates to save their own skins

some proper good advice too!

 

[free spirit]

Sorry? Have we ever met? I have no idea who you are other than 'free spirit' on u75.

and that's the way it will stay unless you and your rich backers / whoever you work for decides they want to employ someone who knows what they're doing to run this party for them.

My rate is £250 per day consultancy, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than the cost of the equipment that you're seriously risking getting seized, and fines you're looking at.

or you could just take the advice I and others on here with shedloads of experience including an ex copper with a worryingly deep understanding of the law who I think charges way more than me for his consultancy services outside of urban.

Bottom line, when you ask for advice and a lot of very experienced people give you advice that is virtually identical, the sensible option is to take that advice.

You have no idea who I am. You have no idea WHAT I know and/or don't know. You have no idea WHO I know. You have no idea who I work for.

Again, stop making things up and pretending that they're true.

sorry, who you work for?

the real question is do the people you work for understand that you are seriously talking about risking them getting charged with reckless endangerment of a thousand peoples lives - on top of ents without a license which has a maximum fine of £20k, and if it's a company they're much more likely to fine you the maximum amount.

obviously if when you say money's not an issue, you mean you're all seriously wealthy city types who don't mind paying £20k fines, then feel free to ignore the advice of us mere plebs.

 

[free spirit]

Next question: How many security people do I/we/they need for a party? 1 per 20? 1 per 40? Should they be plain clothed or clearly marked as security?

I don't like people 'pushing' drugs. E.g. Going around and offering them to people, or setting up little stalls and calling out the drugs like they're in a market. If people want drugs, that's fine, they probably already know where to get them, and they can be responsible for what they do to themselves. Are there likely to be problems in politely asking drug pushers to stop pushing? I'm worried that some gang might turn up looking to make a big profit and become upset when they're asked to leave. Is this possible/common? Ideas?

sorry, but this has to be a wind up right?

I'll warn you here and now that if you are a journalist, I do not give you permission to reproduce my words in print. If you want to reproduce anything I've said on this thread, PM me with an offer. If you print anythink I've written from this thread without permission, I give you fair warning now that I will sue you for breach of copyright.

Also if you go ahead with this event against our advice, do not even think about quoting anything in this thread in your defence in court.

Just so we're clear.

 

[ste9]

OMG, we have an ego trip.

I've been humble the whole time. I was merely pointing out that you are professing to know something about me, when in fact you speak from a position of complete ignorance.

 

[damnhippie]

You have no idea who I am. You have no idea WHAT I know and/or don't know. You have no idea WHO I know. You have no idea who I work for.

 

[snadge]

I've been humble the whole time. I was merely pointing out that you are professing to know something about me, when in fact you speak from a position of complete ignorance.

no you have been an empty head fuckwit, by your own description.

I also give the same disclaimer as free spirit as above, try quoting me now cunt.

 

[ste9]

what would happen - dunno for sure, I never tried it, but going on experience the police would see the smoke bombs as good enough reason to call in all available units, get out the riot gear and return to batter the fuck out of anyone who's not been sensible enough to leave.

oh yeah, and they will give you fair warning - 5 minutes to leave the area etc. except they'll do it from a megaphone / chopper so there's no way anyone near the speakers will hear it, but legally they've given you fair warning and will have videoed themselves doing it to ensure they have the evidence they did things legally if you ever try to take them to court for beating the shit out of you.

My guess is that they'd stay the fuck away. Call in A LOT of reinforcements, possibly army. Then wait for daylight, and for the smoke to clear.

Can you really see them wading into a 1000 strong crowd, with zero visibility? (so either the ravers run away and trample themselves, or they stand and protect themselves.) I think they'd have to be pretty stupid to do that. But who knows.....?

 

[free spirit]

I've been humble the whole time. I was merely pointing out that you are professing to know something about me, when in fact you speak from a position of complete ignorance.

[QUOTE = STE 9 interests]A.I. hacking. datamining. philosophy. brainwar[/QUOTE]

datamining eh... ok I see, in that case you actually are potentially quite good at what you do, couldn't resist telling us in your profile through could you?

have to say I am now slightly intrigued about who you're datamining for.

btw, what I said above about journalists and copyright applies to any sort of commercial use - so if you quote any of this in a report without my permission, and I or anyone else in this thread sees this report, you will be taken to court.

 

[ste9]

try quoting me now cunt.

No problem. Did I mention that I'm an anarchist? A real one. Not one of those idiots that believes in violence and total chaos.

Anarchy means no rulers, not no rules.

 

[snadge]

My guess is that they'd stay the fuck away. Call in A LOT of reinforcements, possibly army. Then wait for daylight, and for the smoke to clear.

Can you really see them wading into a 1000 strong crowd, with zero visibility? (so either the ravers run away and trample themselves, or they stand and protect themselves.) I think they'd have to be pretty stupid to do that. But who knows.....?

you stupid cunt....

you really haven't a clue how this works do you?

 

[chemn]

At the party...

Sunday afternoon...

 

[snadge]

No problem. Did I mention that I'm an anarchist? A real one. Not one of those idiots that believes in violence and total chaos.

Anarchy means no rulers, not no rules.

you what?