Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

[Spymaster]

Can we blame the misplaced flowers on Margaret Thatcher too? If good old non-neoliberal Ted Heath had carried on as PM until the 90s instead, no doubt everyone on that street would now be inviting everyone else in for comradely cups of tea.

 

[cupid_stunt]

...I don’t agree that this is a normal, understandable reaction to a violent death. It appears to reek of intimidation and, in fact, a new low being dredged by the burglars family who seem prepared to use the death of one of their own for their own nefarious purposes. Which, if I’m right, is pretty low.

I think you have banged the nail right on the head there.

I am surprised by Wilf's stand on this, and if I were him, I would be worried that so many of my posts were being liked by the ddfuckwit.

 

[Spymaster]

Wilf And must confuse the hell out of Spymaster et al to see me saying it.

Not at all. You're not always a tit.

 

[cupid_stunt]

 

[A380]

 

[Magnus McGinty]

People are entitled to grieve, no matter how "scummy" they may appear to others putting up flowers etc is part of this process . Ripping down flowers etc only reduces people to their (perceived) level.


Still no sympathy for the perp though.

People can have humility and shame also. Grieving doesn’t trump all other nuances ffs.

People aren’t ‘entitled’ to grieve whilst treading on toes. Entitled from whom or what?

 

[cupid_stunt]

 

[Smangus]

People can have humility and shame also. Grieving doesn’t trump all other nuances ffs.

People aren’t ‘entitled’ to grieve whilst treading on toes. Entitled from whom or what?

entitled to go through the process of grieving , which is a different thing to each individual. not as in entitled middle class type of entitlement.

 

[coley]

this "clan" and hangers on should have it explained to them in small words they are a tiny minority and if they go down the revenge route they will be crushed

Fair point, but once encouraged the 'political crusher' tends to get out of control, be careful of what you wish.

 

[coley]

Thats a bit much. He/they might be arseholes but grief is still grief (a thoroughly shitty experience) and one in my expreince personal hurt swamps giving a shit about the public

I've had more than my fair share of 'grief' in the last few years, but my 'personal hurt' funnily enough had the opposite effect, but 'horses for courses'
These people (with the possible exception of his partner and children, if they were there) aren't 'grieving' they are making various points/threats.
I'm not even going to bother making the effort of collating these people into a distinct 'group'
They existed, in every borderline WC community, where the previous strong community, bonded together by shared working conditions, borderline poverty, political affiliations, sporting/leisure activities always had minority's who were best described as 'work-shy
These communities barely tolerated them, I think most on here would recognise the term 'dole wallahs'
But these people, over the years, as traditional industries slowly collapsed, established a collective base of drugs/money laundering activities, scrap yards, skip wagons, etc.
And having always been in the communities mentioned, have now emerged with a swagger to take revenge on the older community that always regarded them with distain.




'

 

[Wilf]

Wilf Have to say your posts have resurrected this thread from the (not so) silent majority’s shitstorm of early on. I appreciate your points and the humour they’ve been made with. And it’s very telling that with nearly every post you make you have to qualify what you are saying with clarification that you are not supporting burglary or putting on a benefit concert for travellers ‘or the latest en vogue minority’ (which I thought was a particularly low point in this thread).

However, if I can make a break from my own “Sociology lecturers for burglars” stance...



...I don’t agree that this is a normal, understandable reaction to a violent death. It appears to reek of intimidation and, in fact, a new low being dredged by the burglars family who seem prepared to use the death of one of their own for their own nefarious purposes. Which, if I’m right, is pretty low. And must confuse the hell out of Spymaster et al to see me saying it.

Cheers. Liked, even if you are not exactly agreeing with me or I am agreeing with your last paragraph. I'm in danger of lapsing into some pompous stuff as to what my 'strategy' has been on this thread - shoot me if I do. Anyway, my strategy...

At one level I've just been trying to take the piss out of the mail, not only for the shitshow circus they have created over this, but more so the way they have tried to scoop up the genuine concerns of the locals, flowerstompers and the like. Shitty, but run of the mill for the mail. In terms of my thinking, the qualification bit is exactly at the heart of it. I think it's possible and necessary to say that getting burgled is horrible and that anything that targets the elderly and vulnerable is despicable. It's despicable generally and it's despicable in terms of Henry Vincent and those in his family who seem to have been doing that for years. Afaik, everybody on this thread has actually said that. Also, for me personally, I'm not a liberal or trad lefty on crime. Whilst much of crime probably has it's origins in structural issues, that doesn't help people who are the victims in the short term. As an example, on another current thread I've taken the IWCA line in terms of communities responding to dealing in their midst.

But to the point about the tributes and intimidation. Initially, I agreed with posters who said this looks exactly like that, 'territory', we know where you live and all that. But just watching it unfold (mainly via the mail ), it hasn't really looked like that. No show of force by the family and friends, just 2 or 3 women bringing flowers and heartfelt tributes and then going away. Again, qualifications, I've also said that if I was the old bloke, I'd see it as intimidation and I'd be freaked by the whole thing - having already been traumatised. But that's it, there are at least 2 different realities and groups with their own perspectives here. Specifically, having sympathy with the house owner shouldn't leave you thinking the family have no right to grieve in public (and, to be honest, some people on this thread have got pretty close to that).

Again, qualifications: Vincent and some in his family are/were predators, full stop. And in yesterday's spat, I said that put them in the company of other predators, legal and illegal. Okay, take issue with that if you want, but the point I'd ultimately make is that they are predators. It should be easy to say that - it is! But there's no need to laugh at their clothes, to want their social housing or benefits withdrawn, to start going on about lumpens. There really is no need to reach for the weapons of the judgemental right in any of this. [last sentence not aimed at you, obviously]

 

[Spymaster]

But just watching it unfold (mainly via the mail ), it hasn't really looked like that. No show of force by the family and friends, just 2 or 3 women bringing flowers and heartfelt tributes and then going away.

You do realise that not everyone who's been leaving flowers will necessarily have been on the news clips or in the papers?

 

[Wilf]

You do realise that not everyone who's been leaving flowers will necessarily have been on the news clips or in the papers?

The only photos I've seen of people leaving flowers, visiting the site have been 3 women - a couple of visits, perhaps one when locals were also there (can't swear to that). TV, mail and assorted photographers have been in situ just about continuously since the burglary. If there had been any kind of major confrontation with the locals, threats or shows of force, don't you think the mail would have the photos - would have been going berserk, leading calls for the introduction of birching etc? As far as I can tell - and I certainly could have missed things - the 'battle of the bouquets' hasn't quite played out according to their expectations.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Cheers. Liked, even if you are not exactly agreeing with me or I am agreeing with your last paragraph. I'm in danger of lapsing into some pompous stuff as to what my 'strategy' has been on this thread - shoot me if I do. Anyway, my strategy...

At one level I've just been trying to take the piss out of the mail, not only for the shitshow circus they have created over this, but more so the way they have tried to scoop up the genuine concerns of the locals, flowerstompers and the like. Shitty, but run of the mill for the mail. In terms of my thinking, the qualification bit is exactly at the heart of it. I think it's possible and necessary to say that getting burgled is horrible and that anything that targets the elderly and vulnerable is despicable. It's despicable generally and it's despicable in terms of Henry Vincent and those in his family who seem to have been doing that for years. Afaik, everybody on this thread has actually said that. Also, for me personally, I'm not a liberal or trad lefty on crime. Whilst much of crime probably has it's origins in structural issues, that doesn't help people who are the victims in the short term. As an example, on another current thread I've taken the IWCA line in terms of communities responding to dealing in their midst.

But to the point about the tributes and intimidation. Initially, I agreed with posters who said this looks exactly like that, 'territory', we know where you live and all that. But just watching it unfold (mainly via the mail ), it hasn't really looked like that. No show of force by the family and friends, just 2 or 3 women bringing flowers and heartfelt tributes and then going away. Again, qualifications, I've also said that if I was the old bloke, I'd see it as intimidation and I'd be freaked by the whole thing - having already been traumatised. But that's it, there are at least 2 different realities and groups with their own perspectives here. Specifically, having sympathy with the house owner shouldn't leave you thinking the family have no right to grieve in public (and, to be honest, some people on this thread have got pretty close to that).

Again, qualifications: Vincent and some in his family are/were predators, full stop. And in yesterday's spat, I said that put them in the company of other predators, legal and illegal. Okay, take issue with that if you want, but the point I'd ultimately make is that they are predators. It should be easy to say that - it is! But there's no need to laugh at their clothes, to want their social housing or benefits withdrawn, to start going on about lumpens. There really is no need to reach for the weapons of the judgemental right in any of this. [last sentence not aimed at you, obviously]

If it was a mate of mine I’d be busy disowning the cunt as part of the grieving process. If it was a family member, perhaps that’s more tricky but I wouldn’t be making a public song and dance about it given the circumstances that led to their well deserved demise. Some people have no shame.

 

[Teaboy]

Its just the twisted sense of morality of it all. His family clearly see him as not that bad a person because his crimes ranked below rape and murder. He's just a bit of rough diamond, bit like that bloke from porridge - all a bit of a laugh. He no doubt carried a swag bag and wore stripey clothes.

 

[Spymaster]

If there had been any kind of major confrontation with the locals, threats or shows of force, don't you think the mail would have the photos - would have been going berserk, leading calls for the introduction of birching etc?

Well again, not everyone leaving flowers would necessarily been in confrontation with locals. The point is that plenty of people may have left flowers that haven't had their pictures taken or been filmed.

 

[Wilf]

Well again, not everyone leaving flowers would necessarily been in confrontation with locals. The point is that plenty of people may have left flowers that haven't had their pictures taken or been filmed.

But the point I'm responding to is that the shrine thing was about intimidation. If it was a case of delivering flowers with non-confrontational messages (and let's be clear, the media read every last one of the cards), not making threats, not hanging around, not confronting the locals ... well, these flower leavers need to go back to Intimidation School.

I've said several pages back the location of the flowers might well have had a degree of intimidation, but the set of events that followed doesn't really look like that.

 

[existentialist]

But the point I'm responding to is that the shrine thing was about intimidation. If it was a case of delivering flowers with non-confrontational messages (and let's be clear, the media read every last one of the cards), not making threats, not hanging around, not confronting the locals ... well, these flower leavers need to go back to Intimidation School.

I've said several pages back the location of the flowers might well have had a degree of intimidation, but the set of events that followed doesn't really look like that.

There is, though, at the very least, an undertone of "we don't care about you, we'll do what we want" in their actions. Which, if you were feeling a little wobbly - eg if someone had just burgled your house - might feel very uncomfortable. As others have said, they don't seem to be remotely interested in the sensibilities of someone who has suddenly found himself with someone else's blood on his hands, and that doesn't say a lot for them, regardless of how close that blood is to the deceased's.

 

[Wilf]

There is, though, at the very least, an undertone of "we don't care about you, we'll do what we want" in their actions. Which, if you were feeling a little wobbly - eg if someone had just burgled your house - might feel very uncomfortable. As others have said, they don't seem to be remotely interested in the sensibilities of someone who has suddenly found himself with someone else's blood on his hands, and that doesn't say a lot for them, regardless of how close that blood is to the deceased's.

Again though, I've said all that on this thread, that there's an element of potential intimidation and even presence with the tributes. It probably represents several things at once (the shrine), an element of we aren't going quietly, along with the normal rituals of grieving and marking someone from your own community. Ritual/symbol wise, pretty low key in fact compared with, say, republican and loyalist volunteer funerals in Ireland, military funerals etc.

 

[GarveyLives]

Has Billy Jeeves (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?

Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.

Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?

 

[Pickman's model]

Has Billy Jeeves (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?

Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.

Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?

because he doesn't want to be nicked, perhaps

 

[existentialist]

because he doesn't want to be nicked, perhaps

Maybe he has been there. Ugg boots and puffa jackets can hide a multitude of sins

 

[cupid_stunt]

Maybe he has been there. Ugg boots and puffa jackets can hide a multitude of sins

Please fasten your seat-belts, the thread is about to take-off.

 

[existentialist]

Please fasten your seat-belts, the thread is about to take-off.

And maybe a wig.

 

[xenon]

Has Billy Jeeves (above), who has been named by the Metropolitan Police as someone who can assist them on this matter, come forward to join in the process of collective grieving?

Apparently, as previously menttioned, he has not been seen since a man closely fitting his description and appearance left 78 year-old Mr Osborn-Brooks and the Late Henry Vincent downstairs in the property concerned to go upstairs, where Mrs Osborn-Brooks, also in her 70s and variously described in reports as "disabled" or "suffering from dementia", was on her own in bed.

Does anyone know why he has not yet come forward to lay bouquets of flowers opposite Mr Osborn-Brooks' home?

What is the point of this? Your continuing asking this rhetorical question.

 

[cupid_stunt]

And maybe a wig.

Please fasten your seat-belts and any wigs, the thread is about to take-off.

 

[existentialist]

What is the point of this? Your continuing asking this rhetorical question.

Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.

 

[colacubes]

Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.

Yeah but GarveyLives basically only posts about murders/rapes/serious crimes and those who are wanted for them. Particularly in the Brixton/other South London threads. It’s actually weirdly and uncomfortably voyeuristic tbh as they insist on posting very graphic details about the crimes. I (and I think other) posters find it v weird.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well, he's got a bit of a point - amid all the outpouring of grief at the diamond geezah who suffered a fatal work-related injury, you'd think his oppo would be around to pay his respects. But, TBH, I think a) he's wasting his time, as I don't imagine our mate Billy's an urbanite, and b) it does get a bit tedious for the rest of us who aren't...oh, damn, I've forgotten his name again.

 

[existentialist]

View attachment 132757

I think that needs a little beard on it, really...