Pensioner arrested on suspicion of murder after a suspected burglar was stabbed to death.

[kenny g]

Charges were never brought against him. There were no charges to drop. He was questioned and released. It's what happens.

I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.

 

[existentialist]

OK.

OK.

It’s only a “scumbag family” that might want revenge.

A killing type revenge.

Gotcha.

But it’s ok...ok...for any ‘common sense, reasonable, right thinking Urban 75er’ to think it alright to kill someone for burglary. And that doesn’t involve scumbaggery at all.

At all.

I’m sure I’ve misunderstood something somewhere. Don’t worry about me.

TBF - and I'm not sure Spymaster's particular rhetorical style helps here - the situation does rather have to be one of "if you live by the swordscrewdriver, then be prepared to die by the screwdriver". Regardless of scumbag families, etc., this guy took a risk - a risk that would usually pay off nicely - and on this occasion, through whatever combination of circumstance and misfortune prevailed, it didn't. It isn't unreasonable to speculate what a family which, according to public record, appears to involve at the very least, a culture of crime, might think about that happening. And, indeed, what they might choose to do about it - this is, after all, a family of which three generations have been convicted for crimes against vulnerable elderly people, so they might reasonably be assumed not to be particularly unencumbered by moral strictures. If I were that 78 year old, i'd certainly be pondering my options wrt a place in the country...

 

[existentialist]

I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.

I think that, if you have stabbed someone to death, it's not unreasonable to expect to be arrested on suspicion of murder. I can't see how that could possibly breach PACE. We know the death didn't merely "occur in his presence", but that he was responsible for it happening - or at least that there was reasonable suspicion that he was. The point, surely, is - and this is one the media frequently constructively misinterpret, inevitably to their own ends - that arrest means nothing in terms of guilt.

 

[coley]

I will be purchasing a five iron for the golf range, it doesn't knock the ball a huge distance, but does send it up in the sky very satisfactorily. It will be kept at the top of the stairs, in case there is need to investigate noises in the night.

And should you use it on an intruder, rest assured, the Polis will spend more time 'investigating' why you kept it on the "top of the stairs"
Rather than in a golf bag.......

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I shall have to dig them out, and I am pissed, musiced out, and tired - they were in the Telegraph article linked to earlier in the thread. Essentially, they were minimising his role in the thing, and being very sorry that he'd been killed. I picked up undertones of unfairness that it should have happened - the sort of position that can, with a goodly dose of righteous indignation, turn into resentment against the person who was responsible for the killing (OK, we all know that that person was the burglar, but it didn't feel like the family member thought so). If I find it, I'll post the link and a quote.

His uncle Stevie, who lives close to his home in Orpington, said: “We’re in mourning here. We don’t want to talk about what’s been said about Henry. We’ve already had the Old Bill round here. We’re not commenting on anything.”

His cousin, who was not identified, told the BBC she was angry Mr Osborn-Brooks had been bailed. "I don't know what happened in that home. But all I do know is that my cousin is dead today," she said.

"The Henry I know, he was such a loving person, and it's probably something which just went wrong but he shouldn't have died out of it."

Career crook killed by pensioner 'didn't deserve to die', say family

 

[coley]

my sister's local plod in the West Country reccommended one of those whacking great metal maglite torches - it'd need the batteries to give it some heft though

Same here, "as long as it's not an article that shouldn't be 'out of place".. ..coppers aren't that 'robotic' .. yet-

 

[coley]

I prefer to go with what is considered reasonable in the eyes of the community rather than 'the law'.

Odd, most of the "community" was on Martins side, yet the police (supposedly) 'police' with the publics consent!?

 

[coley]

Oh god. please not the hardman weapon talk though.

Sad.

A fire extinguisher and a mention of a baseball bat does not equate to "Hardman weapon talk"

 

[coley]

Burglars don't always shit on your floor you know.

But for some obscure reason they often do!? Why? could understand, in some weird fashion, if they had managed to break in to some obscenely rich home ( the Beckhams, Tony Blair...or such) but it's quite a common behaviour in everyday crimes.

 

[ice-is-forming]

Blimey, all I could think of watching that was a box of eggs dropping on the floor/tapping a large soft boiled egg very hard with a large spoon

Reminded me of after-work drinking at the flying saucer pub, when old George had been sidetracked by one for the road too many times and his missus turned up regularly to deliver his over done dinner, round the head whilst it was still in the frying pan...

 

[coley]

It's a well known and documented phenomena. I've been burgled twice and on one occasion who ever did it had the decency to just piss on my kitchen lino

This "I'm gonna get a large blunt object and beat a burglar to death" is testosterone fuelled nonsense

Slam your bedroom door and call the police.

And wait in fear while you are ferried from one menu to another!?....you called 999 lately?

 

[coley]

Or just some tricks with that wooden sort of mallet my mum had under her mattress that type of thing

No,slap slap, keep on subject

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

No,slap slap, keep on subject

Hahaha I really shouldn’t have posted them ting

 

[coley]

Except these tossers apprantly didn't usually unless its obviously ott you don't get punished for killing thieves in self defence.

"this isnt the US where they will just shrugg and dragg the corpse away they will investigate

We don't want this country to become the 'US' where you can 'despatch/murder a burglar, or someone who by mistake entered your property..
But some bugger who enters your house,in the dark, by force, in the early hours...the law should always be on the side of the householder, without exception.
Peter Martin was driven to his actions by a certain group of individuals who believe they are outside of social norms and regard the communities they live alongside as "prey"

 

[craigxcraig]

Sleepy HG? Awoken to a woman screaming for help, mugged outside our place - dived out of bed and out the house, he'd buggered off at this point. Brought woman in, bruised face and a fat lip. Police have just left and it seems like theyve nabbed the cowardly c*nt - HG must be full of old bill atm.

 

[ice-is-forming]

This has even made the news in my teeny tiny corner of the world..which feels strange because I used to know Hither Green well

Pensioner arrested for fatal stabbing of burglar

 

[Spymaster]

Sleepy HG? Awoken to a woman screaming for help, mugged outside our place - dived out of bed and out the house, he'd buggered off at this point. Brought woman in, bruised face and a fat lip. Police have just left and it seems like theyve nabbed the cowardly c*nt - HG must be full of old bill atm.

Good effort mate.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Not sure where the sign is that one needs to read through a 17 page thread before making a comment Mr Stunt?

You didn't need to read the whole, it was discussed right at the start, and at several points since, it is all very simple.

1 - The man stabbed someone to death.
2 - It's reasonable to accept normally such action is murder.
3 - But, is there a defence? Well it appeared so, but it was one man's word, no CCTV, no witnesses, therefore:
4 - Man needs to be arrested to assist the police investigation, the i's need dotting & the t's need crossing, statements taken, scene searched, etc.
5 - A file of evidence so far then needs submitting to the CPS, IIRC within 24 hours** of arrest for murder when someone is in custody, for 'early investigative advice'.
6 - The CPS then decides if he is charged or not, and if he is what charge that should be, e.g. murder or manslaughter - that decision isn't one for the police, their role is only to carry out the investigation as quickly as possible.

** Just checked, it's actually within 24 hours 'wherever practicable'.

Specific cases involving a death, rape or other serious sexual offence should always be referred to an Area prosecutor as early as possible and in any case once a suspect has been identified and it appears that continuing investigation will provide evidence upon which a charging decision may be made.

Wherever practicable, this should take place within 24 hours in cases where the suspect is being detained in custody or within 7 days where released on bail.

Personally I am glad the investigation concluded support for the pensioner's version so quickly, so the CPS could make their decision in a speedy fashion, the man must have been so relieved to be told no further action will be taken within a fairly short period of time.

I just hope he & his wife receives as much support & help in getting over this, including protection against any possible revenge attack.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm sorry, but being arrested is far more than being "questioned". A police officer is welcome to ask me questions but if he chooses to arrest me that means he is taking a substantial part of my liberty away and the law quite clearly recognises the difference. I would usually agree if a death had occurred in my presence to attend a police station the next day to hear a constable's questions. If I were arrested outside the Codes of PACE I would sue.

He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.

I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent one night in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.

I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent one night in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.

He spent a night shitting himself about the possible ramifications, in a police cell, following the terrifying experience of having to defend himself against intruders.
He didn’t need to be arrested or detained for the police to carry out any enquiries.

 

[Sasaferrato]

A fire extinguisher and a mention of a baseball bat does not equate to "Hardman weapon talk"

No, it doesn't.

 

[Sasaferrato]

He wasn't though. And being arrested meant that he was interviewed under caution I guess.

I really don't get all the fuss about him being arrested. He spent one night in police custody (probably in some comfort) after stabbing a man to death whilst plod investigated the case, liaised with the CPS, cleared him completely, and got him home to his wife within 48 hours. If anything the old bill have done a great job here.

'Better'.

 

[Spymaster]

He spent a night shitting himself about the possible ramifications, in a police cell, following the terrifying experience of having to defend himself against intruders.
He didn’t need to be arrested or detained for the police to carry out any enquiries.

Nonsense. When he was arrested the circumstances would have been fully explained to him and as scifisam said, he was probably very well treated by the coppers at the station.

He killed a man. That's a massive deal regardless of the circumstances of the incident. No reasonable person would expect there to be no consequences whatsoever. As it happens the police have played a blinder, followed the legal process properly, and got him sorted in less than 2 days.

In the real world you can't kill a bloke and ask for much more than that.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Nonsense. When he was arrested the circumstances would have been fully explained to him and as scifisam said, he was probably lauded by the coppers at the station.

He killed a man. That's a massive deal regardless of the circumstances of the incident. No reasonable person would expect there to be no consequences whatsoever. As it happens the police have played a blinder, followed the legal process properly, and got him sorted in less than 2 days.

You can't kill a bloke and ask for much more than that.

He was suspected of killing a man. Even he can’t have known for sure short of them all performing an autopsy together prior to his arrest.

 

[Spymaster]

He was suspected of killing a man.

No. The police will have turned up and asked him what happened. Presumably he'd then have told them, so there was no suspected about it. The first plod on the scene would have been made aware that he was the killer.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

No. The police will have turned up and asked him what happened. Presumably he'd then have told them, so there was no suspected about it. The first plod on the scene would have been made aware that he was the killer.

Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?
Of course there’s still the fact he stabbed someone but the police don’t just make up the cause of death.

 

[Spymaster]

Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?/QUOTE]

Piss off!

 

[existentialist]

Splitting hairs here somewhat but you can’t ascertain that until after the autopsy. What if the cause of death had been cardiac arrest?
Of course there’s still the fact he stabbed someone but the police don’t just make up the cause of death.

I don't think Spymaster is remotely splitting hairs. You, on the other hand...what's all this bollocks about cardiac arrest?

 

[Sasaferrato]

Don't think it's a consensus but there certainly seems to be a few folk who think that plod should have immediately accepted the old boy's version without question, tucked him back into bed and fucked off.

What other possible version is there?

Did a 78 year old man go out into the street, after midnight, and drag two other men, one of whom happened to be armed with a screwdriver, into his house, with the intent of killing one of them?

 

[Magnus McGinty]

I don't think Spymaster is remotely splitting hairs. You, on the other hand...what's all this bollocks about cardiac arrest?

Where did I say it was Spymaster splitting hairs?