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Patrick Finucane

Hang on. I'm lost as to what the discussion is actually about.

Are we discussing what is acceptable practice during an urban guerilla war from each side? Or are we just grumbling about the dirty tricks/mistakes of one side?

I have no love of the British state, especially when it comes to the practices during the troubles. However, I have to play devil's advocate when the IRA are held up as noble freedom fighters.

Fighting dirty, leads to both sides fighting dirty. You are disgusted by my relativist attitude but leave the nonsense framed came out with unchallenged?

There's a quantitive difference between parties to insurrection. The insurrectionists acknowledge that what they do is against the law of the state they challenge, and generally accept the consequences of their transgressions (death, imprisonment etc), while the state acknowledges nothing but its right to transgress its' own laws as and when it serves the states' purpose to, regardless of the cost to their own personnel, the insurrectionists or the general public.
One cannot play Devil's advocate without taking the above into account. If one doesn't take the above into account, one is not playing Devil's advocate, one is taking a position.
 
Well if you blow your agents cover you lose your agents I suspect ira attacks were allowed to go through that could have been stopped that cost people lives as well.
Or pira were set up to belive there was an informant and the resulting bloodbath was shrugged over.
Urban guerilla war nobodys souls remain unstained I doubt a truth and reconcilliation committee is ever going to be held especially as some republicans wish to continue the war.
 
Hang on. I'm lost as to what the discussion is actually about.

Are we discussing what is acceptable practice during an urban guerilla war from each side? Or are we just grumbling about the dirty tricks/mistakes of one side?

I have no love of the British state, especially when it comes to the practices during the troubles. However, I have to play devil's advocate when the IRA are held up as noble freedom fighters.

Fighting dirty, leads to both sides fighting dirty. You are disgusted by my relativist attitude but leave the nonsense framed came out with unchallenged?

Who on this thread has held the IRA up as "noble freedom fighters"?
 
Well if you blow your agents cover you lose your agents I suspect ira attacks were allowed to go through that could have been stopped that cost people lives as well.
Or pira were set up to belive there was an informant and the resulting bloodbath was shrugged over.
Urban guerilla war nobodys souls remain unstained I doubt a truth and reconcilliation committee is ever going to be held especially as some republicans wish to continue the war.
So you are not really against people being killed, even civilians, just as long as you agree with the people doing the killing or allowing the killings to happen.
 
Because thats a valid excuse for killing children with a bomb in a litter bin?

Maybe it's an excuse for shooting kids at point blank range with rubber and plastic bullets, or lining up a unit of paras to take potshots at joyriders, or shooting a lad carrying a tin of paint and claiming it was a gun, or... need I go on?

Everyone can play at the politics of the last atrocity... :rolleyes:
 
There's a quantitive difference between parties to insurrection. The insurrectionists acknowledge that what they do is against the law of the state they challenge, and generally accept the consequences of their transgressions (death, imprisonment etc), while the state acknowledges nothing but its right to transgress its' own laws as and when it serves the states' purpose to, regardless of the cost to their own personnel, the insurrectionists or the general public.
One cannot play Devil's advocate without taking the above into account. If one doesn't take the above into account, one is not playing Devil's advocate, one is taking a position.

If they accepted the consequences of their transgressions, why did they have a defence lawyer?
 

Really? :D :p

I recognise the Provisional IRA as the army of a liberation movement that paved the way for change in NI. Without them and their political representatives there would be no equality agenda and the fascist Orange statelet would have remained intact. Whether or not their actions were 'noble' is another matter altogether. I can support their overall objectives and their right to wage armed struggle against an occupying force without necessarily having to defend all of their actions.

"The IRA is the cutting edge of the struggle for self-determinaion..." - Martin McGuinness

BTW, I don't regard the use of violence to achieve political ends as 'noble', but through my experience as a member of AFA I learnt that sometimes it is necessary... unfortunately.
 
If they accepted the consequences of their transgressions, why did they have a defence lawyer?

They have a legal entitlement, one that can't be abrogated by the state without severe constitutional issues that the state doesn't care to address. Even if they forewent expert representation, they'd still be required to represent themselves in court.

Think before you post, eh Frank?
 
Really? :D :p

I recognise the Provisional IRA as the army of a liberation movement that paved the way for change in NI. Without them and their political representatives there would be no equality agenda and the fascist Orange statelet would have remained intact. Whether or not their actions were 'noble' is another matter altogether. I can support their overall objectives and their right to wage armed struggle against an occupying force without necessarily having to defend all of their actions.

"The IRA is the cutting edge of the struggle for self-determinaion..." - Martin McGuinness

BTW, I don't regard the use of violence to achieve political ends as 'noble', but through my experience as a member of AFA I learnt that sometimes it is necessary... unfortunately.
To me, some of what you have said has some truth in it, but much is pretty dodgy. But I think we will just have to disagree. Hopefully we both believe it is possible to disagree without trying to kill each other.
 
Really? :D :p

I recognise the Provisional IRA as the army of a liberation movement that paved the way for change in NI. Without them and their political representatives there would be no equality agenda and the fascist Orange statelet would have remained intact. Whether or not their actions were 'noble' is another matter altogether. I can support their overall objectives and their right to wage armed struggle against an occupying force without necessarily having to defend all of their actions.

"The IRA is the cutting edge of the struggle for self-determinaion..." - Martin McGuinness

BTW, I don't regard the use of violence to achieve political ends as 'noble', but through my experience as a member of AFA I learnt that sometimes it is necessary... unfortunately.

To me, some of what you have said has some truth in it, but much is pretty dodgy. But I think we will just have to disagree. Hopefully we both believe it is possible to disagree without trying to kill each other.

What I was trying to do was make some bullet points from framed's post so you could explain the 'dodgy' bits

IE: do you disagree that;

The PIRA was the army of a liberation movement?

That the change (gfa etc) would have come about without a militant republican effort?

They were entitled to wage armed struggle (NB - not whether this armed struggle was always executed in an acceptable manner) ?
 
What I was trying to do was make some bullet points from framed's post so you could explain the 'dodgy' bits

IE: do you disagree that;

The PIRA was the army of a liberation movement?

That the change (gfa etc) would have come about without a militant republican effort?

They were entitled to wage armed struggle (NB - not whether this armed struggle was always executed in an acceptable manner) ?

Point-by-point refutations on message boards tend to end up pretty tedious. And in this case it is slightly more complicated by you paraphrasing, and selecting elements from framed's post.

However, out of sheer vanity, I will answer your questions as they are:

The PIRA was the army of a liberation movement?
A very slow and guarded "yes"

That the change (gfa etc) would have come about without a militant republican effort?
I think it would have. Perhaps even earlier. The British state essentially didn't give a shit, and most Brits weren't interested in NI. When the bombings and shootings happened, the republicans went from being people the Brits didn't care about, to being ones they feared and hated. The strategy of violence was about male pride, rather than an effective way to force political change.

They were entitled to wage armed struggle (NB - not whether this armed struggle was always executed in an acceptable manner) ?
Can you separate the methods from the overall justification? Defending catholics homes and families from violence is a legitimate time for the application of force. Shooting and bombing general "legitimate targets" - not acceptable.
 
So you are not really against people being killed, even civilians, just as long as you agree with the people doing the killing or allowing the killings to happen.

Pretty much if your goingvto recognise the provos as some sort of liberation force.
Trying to stop them is obviously evil .

I saw them as a bunch of murderous cunts high on guinness and rebel songs.
 
Pretty much if your goingvto recognise the provos as some sort of liberation force.
Trying to stop them is obviously evil .

I saw them as a bunch of murderous cunts high on guinness and rebel songs.

Its possible to understand the politics of the armed republican movement while criticising their methods y'know.

Well, not for you obviously. Other people seem to manage it though.
 
The PIRA was the army of a liberation movement?
A very slow and guarded "yes"

That the change (gfa etc) would have come about without a militant republican effort?
I think it would have. Perhaps even earlier. The British state essentially didn't give a shit, and most Brits weren't interested in NI. When the bombings and shootings happened, the republicans went from being people the Brits didn't care about, to being ones they feared and hated.

You can choose to believe in the fantasy of 'political evolution' when it comes to loyalism and unionism, but the truth is that the unionists had to be dragged kicking and screaming by their political masters into talks with the political representatives of the nationalist community. And still it goes on, as is amply demonstrated by the loyalist flag protests in the last week. These people haven't given so much as an inch in 90 years without a fight having been waged for it.

The GFA was a negotiated settlement between combatants after a prolonged armed conflict between the British state and Irish republican insurgents. It was a response to the conflict, it's absurd to suggest that a political response to the conflict could have been brought about without the conflict actually taking place !?! BTW, I don't actually agree with the negotiated terms of the GFA because imho it reinforces sectarian division and apportions political responsibility in Stormont along tribal lines. It represents a step forward because, first and foremost, it brought a relative calm to communities and allowed political representatives to take the lead, but as a long-term political solution it is flawed.

The strategy of violence was about male pride, rather than an effective way to force political change.

Male Pride? Please elaborate...

They were entitled to wage armed struggle (NB - not whether this armed struggle was always executed in an acceptable manner) ?
Can you separate the methods from the overall justification? Defending catholics homes and families from violence is a legitimate time for the application of force.

Unfortunately, you are partly right here. The (P)IRA were, to a large extent, a 'Catholic Defenderist' organisation that organised resistance to British Army, RUC and loyalist attacks on their community. That it developed into an army of resistance and liberation should be qualified by its sectarian roots, but nonetheless, it was the Catholic/nationalist community that was in revolt against the political status quo. Whilst (P)IRA combatants were of the working class, it is clear that they were not necessarily fighting for the interests of the Irish working class as a whole. Regardless of their high-falutin' political statements at times, the (P)IRA primarily represented its own community and the interests of its own political leaders. However, if an army that you regard as an illegitimate force and which does not represent you or your community is occupying your country, your town, your area, your street; what else is there to do but fight?

Shooting and bombing general "legitimate targets" - not acceptable.

War is hell, isn't it?
 
Shooting and bombing general "legitimate targets" - not acceptable.

Errm that is what this thread is about, and is exactly what we've been saying and you and SpookyFrank have been arguing against.

You're the one claiming that "dirty war is dirty" to excuse murdering a solicitor in front of his family.You two are the ones defending terrorism while accusing other people on the thread of ... defending terrorism.
 
note how when irregulars face regulars the shit the irregulars get up to is held as the vilest terrorism whereas regular army atrocities are 'mistakes were made'

The SAS, a state-sponsored terrorist unit, is widely celebrated for their ruthlessness in the field and reputation for taking no prisoners. They are cold-blooded assassins, but the job comes with an army pension and a wink and a nod from hypocrites such as Likesfish.
 
I saw them as a bunch of murderous cunts high on guinness and rebel songs.
it's interesting that while you argue that it's by no means what's argued by the people who were fighting them. you don't get to be an armed struggle organization of the longevity of the ira without having some nous.
 
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