Patrick Finucane
- Thread starter trampie
- Start date
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Go read some history
framed
Leave it!
No, it's a statistical one based on the numbers and the graph provided by other posters...
What's yours?
framed
Leave it!
Oh, I dunno, but according to one of your earlier posts on a related thread, it managed to create 'innocent victims' and 'even more innocent victims', a concept that you have yet to explain...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Idaho
blah blah blah
I don't know of any other time that deaths have been reported or assessed as a proportion. Deaths of humans are an absolute.
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
In wars deaths are often reported proportionately; e.g. there are plenty of stats out there comparing civilian and military loss of life for different nations in both world wars. Unfortunately death of humans are by no means absolute even if we want that to be the case.
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
p.s. my intention of posting the graph was to provide some more contextual detail to go alongside likesfish's figures.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Ah, that makes it alright then. Nothing like killing people to make up for people getting killed.
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It certainly is for the humans in question.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
You think that's what is being said? Rather than a comment on your ahistorical (mis)understanding?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
It's not the only post on this thread that smacks of apologism for the IRA, not by a long shot.
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
As if to prove my point...
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Try going back to the 17th Century. Does the name Cromwell ring any bells?
Louis MacNeice
Autumn Journalist
They came from a quick google which brought up this long defunct website; if you look at the other material contained there it's pretty apparent it doesn't have a republican bias. Of course that doesn't mean it's accurate. For a possibly more partisan take on the figures up to 1999 there's this article from the Australian Green Left journal; it claims to reference a University of Ulster study (which should be traceable if you want to have a look).
How hazy is the distinction between serving and past members of the armed forces, police and prison services? Or is it just hard to tell catholics and IRA volunteers apart?
Cheers - Louis MacNeice
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Because thats a valid excuse for killing children with a bomb in a litter bin?
Blagsta
Minimum cage, maximum cage
Has anyone on here justified that?
Idaho
blah blah blah
I just want to know if they are accurate. If they are accurate then they can't be biased.
Your last paragraph highlights the overlaps. Is a prison guard a civilian? Is someone who organises IRA activities but doesn't shoot or bomb a republican or a civilian? In this kind of conflict, illegal killings and innocent victims are inevitable.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Why do people say things like this? It's a pointless statement that only serves to justify murder. "In human society murder and rape are inevitable". Meaningless.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Do you accept the statement? Are they inevitable? If so, the only moral judgement you can make is to compare the levels of extra judicial killings with other states in similar circumstances.
It could be argued that decrying a state for things that are inevitable is meaningless.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Do you accept that rape is inevitable?
edit: it could be argued that you are meaningless
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Amazing how the posters with the most simplistic perspectives on the history of the island of Ireland, and the internecine struggles over her, also appear to be the posters most willing to use straw man arguments. It's like watching mini-Saseferratos being born.
Idaho
blah blah blah
I am meaningless!
Yes rape is inevitable. Some countries have more rape than others, so their policies on rape can be judged relative to each other.
The actions of the British state can be compared to other similar states waging a low level insurgency. The actions of the IRA can be compared to other similar political organisations in similar circumstances.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Maybe we can establish some kind of Death Squad kitemark, to bring Best Practise to the dirty wars. My flippant response is a result of my being sickened by your relativist attitude.
elbows
Well-Known Member
I am saddened that the troubles appear to have been far too emotive for some people to deal with the issues covered by the report into the Finucane murder without bringing a truckload of other baggage into this debate.
I dont think Sir Desmond de Silva could be accused of having IRA sympathies, and whilst his report obviously did not go as far as some did in this thread, his conclusions had sod all to do with your disgusting 'Finucane was fair game' stance.
How about journalists, I suppose if some of them were 'too close to the IRA' you'd have condoned their murder as well?
From now on when anybody dies as a result of state action or inaction, I'll be sure to check your stance and compare it to the amazing standards you have set yourself on this thread. In an attempt to align yourself against a violent group and those that 'support' it, you've actually cuddled up to murder and violence of a slightly different variety, well done.
Idaho
blah blah blah
Hang on. I'm lost as to what the discussion is actually about.
Are we discussing what is acceptable practice during an urban guerilla war from each side? Or are we just grumbling about the dirty tricks/mistakes of one side?
I have no love of the British state, especially when it comes to the practices during the troubles. However, I have to play devil's advocate when the IRA are held up as noble freedom fighters.
Fighting dirty, leads to both sides fighting dirty. You are disgusted by my relativist attitude but leave the nonsense framed came out with unchallenged?
Are we discussing what is acceptable practice during an urban guerilla war from each side? Or are we just grumbling about the dirty tricks/mistakes of one side?
I have no love of the British state, especially when it comes to the practices during the troubles. However, I have to play devil's advocate when the IRA are held up as noble freedom fighters.
Fighting dirty, leads to both sides fighting dirty. You are disgusted by my relativist attitude but leave the nonsense framed came out with unchallenged?
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
Now comes the backpeddling.
Deareg
Well-Known Member
When it comes to Ireland you are actually one of the few people who justifies people being killed, I seem to recall crossing words with you on this very topic in the past and you justified the use of agents and the covering up for them by their handlers, allowing civilians to be killed that would otherwise have blown the agents cover?
elbows
Well-Known Member
Those who couldnt help but bring up their favorite facts and opinions regarding the bloody context in which this state-enabled murder took place can take comfort in the very last bit of the executive summary of the report.
From http://www.patfinucanereview.org/report/volume01/executive-summary-and-principal-conclusions/
From http://www.patfinucanereview.org/report/volume01/executive-summary-and-principal-conclusions/
eoin_k
Lawyer's fees, beetroot and music
His defence work would have been publicly funded. So, the logical interpretation of your post is that you consider the British state to be a terrorist organisation.
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