Patrick Finucane

[danny la rouge]

No progress only in your arrogance that your view is the only one permissible. Of course there had to be defence lawyers, for all sorts of vermin. Doesn't mean you are obliged to love them.

Where have I said only you view is permissible? Nowhere.

I am disagreeing with you, not policing your brain or utterances.

 

[Sasaferrato]

you seem to think it quite acceptable to kill them.

WRONG!

you see, you're already a) moving the goal posts and b) introducing aspects to the scenarios which were not there a post or two back. how do you know someone who plants a bomb in a fish and chip shop is ipso facto a sectarian killer and not, for example, committing insurance fraud? how do you know someone who's stolen a car isn't going to use it for a car bomb? might they not have mitigating factors? might they not be able to employ the auld necessity defence?

 

[Fedayn]

Nairac's time in Northern Ireland was complex. His involvement, or otherwise, with the UVF has certainly been cited many times.

The Pat Finucane Centre stated when investigating allegations of collusion between the security forces and loyalist paramilitaries, that although Nairac has been linked to many attacks, "caution has to be taken when dealing with Nairac as attacks are sometimes attributed to him purely because of his reputation."

I have no way of knowing exactly what happened with regard to Nairac and the UVF, but don't doubt that there was involvement, and also that this involvement was on the instruction of those much higher up the chain.

However, working under cover in Northern Ireland took guts, and lots of them.

I can't help but notice you seem to have a strong Republican bias throughout your posts, which of course gives you a certain view of Nairac. If you come from the Republican community, this is perfectly understandable.

I am not Republican, I am a socialist, I think that the tactics if the IRA/INLA were counterproductive and a hindrance to class politics but it takes guts to take on the British State militarily. What I abhor is the justification for murdering lawyers
I abhor the hypocrisy of the British Army murdering their way with impunity across Irekand bleating about defence lawyers doing their job. The biggest terrorists in this war, by a mile, was/is the British Army/state.

 

[Pickman's model]

well may you hold your head.in your hands after the woeful display you've given today.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm divided 50:50 between the thought that a state does what it needs to do, and the thought that the state must act within its own laws.

Northern Ireland was vicious and brutal place.

Nope, Northern Ireland was/is an occupied territory. It was certain people (loyalist, republican or British military) that were "vicious and brutal".

We were fighting against people who described them selves as an army, yet had no respect for the rules of war. they were the scum of the earth. People who brutalised their own community. People who, for example, dragged a mother away from her children and tortured her to death, then hid the body, only recently disclosing the location. They did this on the suspicion that she may have been an informer. There are really no adequate words to describe the base depravity of this self-styled army.

A "self-styled army" rode down 15 people at Peterloo. "Peoples' militias" and paramilitaries have committed mayhem for hundreds of years, and yet you save all your venom for one group. Your breathless hate of PIRA and your turning a half-blind eye to official collusion if it harmed PIRA speaks loudly.

It is completely unbelievable that Finucane was unaware of the deeds of the people he defended. It is reasonable to believe that Finucane shared the ethos of those whom he defended. From a government viewpoint, Finucane required to be removed, and they could not do it themselves, so the job was 'contracted out'.

Finucane was a lawyer operating under UK legal principles, i.e. "the taxi rank principle" of having to see those clients that wish to retain you; the principle of client confidentiality, which you can only breach if harm is imminent, not if some gobshite tells you he petrol-bombed an RUC patrol car; the principle of innocence until guilt is proven (something you're not allowing Pat Finucane).

I shed no tears for Finucane, he was well aware of the deeds of the people he defended, and by silence, colluded in those deeds. His death however, is a stain on the character of the government of the time, and is not excusable. The state must operate within its own laws, and on this occasion (one of a number of occasions), it did not do so. Those responsible will not answer for it, and that is unacceptable.

You're a whiny,havering gobshite.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It is my view, to which I'm entitled. I do not demand, or expect, that you will share it.

You never trod the streets of Northern Ireland in uniform, did you? Had you done so, it may have engendered a different view.

Maybe or maybe not. Thing is, to "explain" your rancid antipathy through reference to having worn army green doesn't cut the mustard. I served with people who left Ulster with republican sympathies, with loyalist sympathies, or with sympathy only for themselves. Serving doesn't justify the rabidity of your hatred for the Provisional IRA.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I am old enough to have served with soldiers who were in NI right at the start, the days when the people of the Catholic areas brought out cups of tea for the soldiers. Didn't last long...

My late foster-father was a two-striper in the Grens when the British army were "requested". He was part of the first lot into Belfast in '69. He always reckoned that the reason the occasional Catholic household were grateful was because the British army meant a bulwark between them and the RUC and B-men.

 

[likesfish]

Another 3500 odd people died in the troubles pat wasnt some extra special snowflake in that reguards

n rights by murdering innocent Protestants. It is also puzzling for Unionists why Sinn Fein/IRA are campaigning so vigorously to defend the reputation of Mr Finucane as that of a "human rights lawyer" whilst justifying their murder of the Protestant Human Rights Lawyer, Mr Edgar Graham at Queens university

Funny that isnt it

 

[butchersapron]

Another 3500 odd people died in the troubles pat wasnt some extra special snowflake in that reguards

n rights by murdering innocent Protestants. It is also puzzling for Unionists why Sinn Fein/IRA are campaigning so vigorously to defend the reputation of Mr Finucane as that of a "human rights lawyer" whilst justifying their murder of the Protestant Human Rights Lawyer, Mr Edgar Graham at Queens university

Funny that isnt it

just grow old and die

 

[ViolentPanda]

Was this man (who colluded in, arranged, aided and abetted, advised upon, initiated, suggested, facilitated, many sectarian murders a reservist or ex-B-Special Sasaferrato ?...

One of the high-functioning upper class sociopaths that the British army has always liked to keep around. He did what he did supposedly "for Queen and Country", but in reality he was just another posh fuckwit getting off on killing people or ruining their lives. Fuck knows how many he'd have killed or caused to be killed if he hadn't been murdered in turn, and it's not as if the fucker didn't freelance off of his mission orders, either. He was a danger not just to the Catholic population of Northern Ireland, but to British soldiers serving there too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who is he?

Robert Nairac. A much-loathed* appendage of the military.

*By his comrades, by his C.O. Even by some of the loyalists he worked with. No-one likes a loose cannon. They generally cause mayhem.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Robert Nairac. A much-loathed* appendage of the military.

*By his comrades, by his C.O. Even by some of the loyalists he worked with. No-one likes a loose cannon. They generally cause mayhem.

He was certainly a loose cannon. Awarded the George Cross just the same.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Maybe or maybe not. Thing is, to "explain" your rancid antipathy through reference to having worn army green doesn't cut the mustard. I served with people who left Ulster with republican sympathies, with loyalist sympathies, or with sympathy only for themselves. Serving doesn't justify the rabidity of your hatred for the Provisional IRA.

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

 

[peterkro]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

Ditto British Army etc.

 

[Buckaroo]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

Do you shed any tears for Rosemary Nelson, another human rights activist lawyer/terrorist apologist, another one asking for it, assassinated by the state contracted Red Hand Gang Bangers one year after the GFA was signed? Housekeeping or just fair play?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

Fuck me, & how many innocent people have the paras killed?

e2a Sass, you know how I feel about it, so that's it from me

 

[bamalama]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

Did he leave a stain on that wee wall they hid behind...there's training for ye...

The reason you hate the provos so much is plain obvious, they scared the livin shite outta ye

 

[likesfish]

Ooh a rebel fanboy hows the united ireland?
Oh wait it didnt work did it?

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Clockwork.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Did he leave a stain on that wee wall they hid behind...there's training for ye...

The reason you hate the provos so much is plain obvious, they scared the livin shite outta ye

Whatever.

Off to watch Glastonbury.

 

[Buckaroo]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

Warrenpoint was army stuff though yes? The stuff you regard as morally superior to blowing up civilian stuff? Is that right? Is any of it of course but just to get a handle on your moral compass etc.

 

[bamalama]

Whatever.

Off to watch Glastonbury.

...shed not a tear
50/50
terrorist scum blah blah etc etc...

 

[equationgirl]

Buckaroo
Think you'd better edit that last part as it's potentially libellous. As far as I know that person was not convicted of any such crime.

 

[Buckaroo]

Buckaroo
Think you'd better edit that last part as it's potentially libellous. As far as I know that person was not convicted of any such crime.

Can you libel the dead?

 

[Pickman's model]

Can you libel the dead?

no

 

[ViolentPanda]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

I don't hate the person who injured me. That's not because I have not a shred of decency, morality or conscience, but because he was someone doing a job, same as me. Only an idiot ignores the fact that there's more similarity between ourselves and our enemies than we like to acknowledge.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Fuck me, & how many innocent people have the paras killed?

e2a Sass, you know how I feel about it, so that's it from me

My grandad was a career soldier. KOYLI from 1926 till after Dunkirk, then a Para until '48, when he was demobbed. He was ashamed of what his regt got up to in Ulster,and stopped attending regimental reunions etc. This was a bloke who'd seen plenty of carnage, and caused quite a bit, but what the Paras did in Ulster disgusted him (and bear in mind that some of the brass in the '70s had been the green junior officers he'd looked after in the '40s, so his intel was good, once he checked beyond what the papers were saying).

 

[LiamO]

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

Well done you. What a succinct justification for every would-be Jihadist, from every nation afflicted by the West, who has had friends or family killed by britain or the US to pop over and kill every 'apologist' he comes across. They should translate it into arabic and use it at their lectures

 

[DotCommunist]

a self-styled army at work:

The MRF killed and wounded a number of unarmed Catholic civilians in drive-by shootings. One former member of the unit has described it as a "legalised death squad".[3] It has also been accused of colluding with illegal loyalist paramilitaries and carrying out false flagattacks. The MRF was succeeded by the SRU (or 14 Intelligence Company) and, later, by the FRU.

 

[N_igma]

I would have thought anyone with the slightest thread of decency, conscience or morality would hate the Provisional IRA. Ditto UVF etc.

The day I joined the army, on the train to Ash Vale, I bumped into a school friend who was heading on to Aldershot to join the Paras. The murdering filth of the PIRA killed him at Warrenpoint. Pathological hatred does not even come close.

South Armagh brigade by the way. Enjoy!