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Patrick Finucane

Sasaferrato Pat Finucane was indeed a republican. He was also a brilliant defence advocate.

These two things combined made him dangerous and a 'legitimate' target for your beloved state to murder, quite deliberately using proxies who were (one and all, individually and collectively) working for one arm or other of your precious state.

They were not acting on their own initiative either, but on orders/requests from the RUC Special Branch and FRU. And only after a senior politician had fingered him in the Commons.

So on the one hand you rant on about how much you hate 'murdering scum' whilst one the other you 'shed no tears' for a man who chose to pursue his republicanism through peaceful means? How exactly does that work in Sass world?
 
Murdering scium and criminals all...
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Sasaferrato said:
I wasn't sorry to see him go.
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Yes, you said that. What does it mean? His murder was a crime, but you're not sorry about the outcome of the criminal act? The death of a murder victim. You're not going to shed tears. You're not sorry.

You also said that "Finucane and his ilk were/are [...] apologists for murdering scum" and that you "extend that view to those who specialised in the defence of both lots of murdering scum".

I, on the other hand, think defence lawyers need to defend. They're part of the justice system. Without them we have tyranny. But you think they share the ethos of those they defend, and if they're murdered, you're not sorry. Though technically it'd be a crime.

Furthermore you said "I'm divided 50:50 between the thought that a state does what it needs to do, and the thought that the state must act within its own laws."

I'm not. I'm not divided about that at all. I'll state categorically now: The state should act within its own laws. There.
 
Pickman's model said:
er... wasn't british government collusion with the protestant murderers expressed through the medium of the army? i mean, a lot of protestant murderers strangely happened to be members of the british army... for example http://www.thedetail.tv/articles/british-army-covered-up-udr-units-links-to-uvf
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Wow, you can Google. What a unique achievement. Again, either naivety or partisanship on your part. The ordinary squaddie had little or no knowledge of the chicanery that was taking place far above their pay grade. The ordinary squaddie was just as much a victim of government policy as Finucane was. Those directly involved in collusion with the Protestant murderers were not 'ordinary squaddies' they were reservists, virtually all of whom were ex or serving B Specials. (The very people whose actions precipitated the whole bloody mess). There is an excellent book by Anne Cadwallader called 'Lethal Allies', which made sobering reading, regarding the collusion between the army, police and Protestant murderers. If you haven't read it, you should.
 
danny la rouge said:
Yes, you said that. What does it mean? His murder was a crime, but you're not sorry about the outcome of the criminal act? The death of a murder victim. You're not going to shed tears. You're not sorry.

You also said that "Finucane and his ilk were/are [...] apologists for murdering scum" and that you "extend that view to those who specialised in the defence of both lots of murdering scum".

I, on the other hand, think defence lawyers need to defend. They're part of the justice system. Without them we have tyranny. But you think they share the ethos of those they defend, and if they're murdered, you're not sorry. Though technically it'd be a crime.

Furthermore you said "I'm divided 50:50 between the thought that a state does what it needs to do, and the thought that the state must act within its own laws."

I'm not. I'm not divided about that at all. I'll state categorically now: The state should act within its own laws. There.
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So, you cannot see any situation at any time where the state may require to act without its legal framework in order to preserve life and limb?

There is no 'technically' in the murder of Patrick Finucane, it was murder, murder sanctioned and facilitated by the state.

I take your point, and admire its simplistic purity, however unworldly it may be.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Wow, you can Google. What a unique achievement. Again, either naivety or partisanship on your part. The ordinary squaddie had little or no knowledge of the chicanery that was taking place far above their pay grade. The ordinary squaddie was just as much a victim of government policy as Finucane was. Those directly involved in collusion with the Protestant murderers were not 'ordinary squaddies' they were reservists, virtually all of whom were ex or serving B Specials. (The very people whose actions precipitated the whole bloody mess). There is an excellent book by Anne Cadwallader called 'Lethal Allies', which made sobering reading, regarding the collusion between the army, police and Protestant murderers. If you haven't read it, you should.
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the ordinary squaddie of course part of the british army. let's remind ourselves what you said:
Sasaferrato said:
FFS! Don't be so fucking naive. Do you seriously think I'm going to walk into your little trap? :D

First off, what I said was correct, AT THAT TIME. The situation changed rapidly, and the army became the enemy of both communities; more so the Catholic than the Protestant, due to British government collusion with the Protestant murderers. The answer was always going be a political one; sadly, a lot of people died before that happened.
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so don't try to weasel out of it by saying 'on the one hand the fine english squaddie on the other hand the foul loyalist squaddie' because they were both in the same institution and i am not sure the english squaddies wholly guiltless.
 
Sasaferrato said:
So, you cannot see any situation at any time where the state may require to act without its legal framework in order to preserve life and limb?
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Murdering defence lawyers, or colluding in the murder of defence lawyers, does not fit my definition of preserving life and limb.

And, no, I don't think the state should be in a position where it's justifying its actions as illegal but necessary. Then saying, do as I say not as I do.

(I take it you mean outwith rather than without?)
 
Was this man (who colluded in, arranged, aided and abetted, advised upon, initiated, suggested, facilitated, many sectarian murders a reservist or ex-B-Special Sasaferrato ?...

220px-Robert_Nairac.jpg
 
See those Protestant workers mudrred because the worken on but hrlp build/repair/sustaim British Army bases. I shed not a tear for them
 
Fedayn said:
See those Protestant workers mudrred because the worken on but hrlp build/repair/sustaim British Army bases. I shed not a tear for them
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That's your view, to which you are entitled. Sorry, but I cannot become incensed over it. Better sense of perspective I suppose.

I have regret that anyone was killed in what was a futile attempt to impose peace by the use of violence. I would much rather that none of it had happened, but it did, and that cannot be changed.
 
Sasaferrato said:
That's your view, to which you are entitled. Sorry, but I cannot become incensed over it. Better sense of perspective I suppose.

I have regret that anyone was killed in what was a futile attempt to impose peace by the use of violence. I would much rather that none of it had happened, but it did, and that cannot be changed.
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so you disagree with the entirity of operation banner?
 
Sasaferrato said:
That's your view, to which you are entitled. Sorry, but I cannot become incensed over it. Better sense of perspective I suppose.

I have regret that anyone was killed in what was a futile attempt to impose peace by the use of violence. I would much rather that none of it had happened, but it did, and that cannot be changed.
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The point is Sas I don't agree with it. But simply showing hiw stupid your murder but shed no tears nonsense is.

You have no better sense of perspective at all. You simply shed no tears over the victims of state sanctioned murder because you did not like them doing their, not only legal, but vital day job.
 
Fedayn said:
The very ex Captain Robert Nairac ex SAS/UVF
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Ah yes. Tortured and murdered by the IRA whilst working 'under cover'. He knew the risks he was taking, and was either a fool or a very brave man, or both.

I'm not terribly sure why you pick him out particularly, the job he was doing was being done by others at the time.
 
Fedayn said:
The point is Sas I don't agree with it. But simply showing hiw stupid your murder but shed no tears nonsense is.

You have no better sense of perspective at all. You simply shed no tears over the victims of state sanctioned murder because you did not like them doing their, not only legal, but vital day job.
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I would have felt exactly the same way had he been defending the other side. To say I shed no tears, is more in the abstract with regard to his job. With regard to his death as a human being, and of course, the effect on his family, that I regret, as I regret the the death of most human beings. On reflection, I haven't expressed this terribly well. I certainly don't condone his killing, not in any way, but I suppose I am not particularly sorry with regard to his death in terms of his occupation, rather that as a human being.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I would have felt exactly the same way had he been defending the other side. To say I shed no tears, is more in the abstract with regard to his job. With regard to his death as a human being, and of course, the effect on his family, that I regret, as I regret the the death of most human beings. On reflection, I haven't expressed this terribly well. I certainly don't condone his killing, not in any way, but I suppose I am not particularly sorry with regard to his death in terms of his occupation, rather that as a human being.
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have you had a bad experience with lawyers?
 
Sasaferrato said:
Ah yes. Tortured and murdered by the IRA whilst working 'under cover'. He knew the risks he was taking, and was either a fool or a very brave man, or both.

I'm not terribly sure why you pick him out particularly, the job he was doing was being done by others at the time.
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I didn't pick him out. I simply replied to your question as to his identity.

Brave? Setting up innocent people for loyalist murder gangs is brave? Yet another interesting dictionary definition from yourself.
 
Sasaferrato said:
I would have felt exactly the same way had he been defending the other side. To say I shed no tears, is more in the abstract with regard to his job. With regard to his death as a human being, and of course, the effect on his family, that I regret, as I regret the the death of most human beings. On reflection, I haven't expressed this terribly well. I certainly don't condone his killing, not in any way, but I suppose I am not particularly sorry with regard to his death in terms of his occupation, rather that as a human being.
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OK, that's an improvement. You now shed a metaphoric tear for his murder as a human being, but as a defence lawyer your metaphoric tears stay in their ducts.

I'm saying that as a human being his murder was a tragedy, but also as a defence lawyer his job was vital to the rule of law, and his murder was a blow against that rule of law, not just against a man, but against the concept of a fair trial and the rule of law.
 
Pickman's model said:
have you had a bad experience with lawyers?
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Nope, the last time I used the services of one was when we bought the house. I have a cousin who is a solicitor, I wouldn't give him a character reference, but I dare say he isn't representative of the profession.

You cannot equate the experience of the average solicitor with the experiences of those involved in the defence of both sides in NI though.
 
Sasaferrato said:
You cannot equate the experience of the average solicitor with the experiences of those involved in the defence of both sides in NI though.
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No, the average solicitor isn't trying to uphold the rule of law where around him/her others are not. The average solicitor is not subject to plausible daily death threats. The average solicitor is not working in the gaps between the actions of a state ignoring its own laws, and the actions of paramilitaries.
 
Fedayn said:
I didn't pick him out. I simply replied to your question as to his identity.

Brave? Setting up innocent people for loyalist murder gangs is brave? Yet another interesting dictionary definition from yourself.
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Come on, get a grip. What do you call under cover work in Northern Ireland, knowing that a wrong word could mean death? Would you have done it? I certainly wouldn't.

You don't have to share the ideology of a person to be able to recognise their bravery.
 
danny la rouge said:
No, the average solicitor isn't trying to uphold the rule of law where around him/her others are not. The average solicitor is not subject to plausible daily death threats. The average solicitor is not working in the gaps between the actions of a state ignoring its own laws, and the actions of paramilitaries.
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Quite.
 
Sasaferrato said:
Nope, the last time I used the services of one was when we bought the house. I have a cousin who is a solicitor, I wouldn't give him a character reference, but I dare say he isn't representative of the profession.

You cannot equate the experience of the average solicitor with the experiences of those involved in the defence of both sides in NI though.
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so what you're saying is people like the birmingham 6 or guildford 4 did not deserve the services of a lawyer
 
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