The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I don't think level of education has anything to do with political views
Opposing the march for England: April 21st /Brighton
- Thread starter TopCat
- Start date
MillwallShoes
Don't kill the Lion
maybe, but do you think there's many graduates in the EDL?
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
fred perry all the way! todays is a claret and blue one (not west ham tho).
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I don't think there were many graduates in those that stopped Mosley, or in the NUM or those who didn't pay the Poll Tax either
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
different times tho steps, post-war grants etc meant working class people could get university education and since then, despite the abolition of grants, the idea of working class people going to uni is hardly unusual. the expectations of working class people are different to the 30s.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
That isn't the issue , the issue is whether education = politics .We might have more graduates but we have a Tory/Lib Dem coalition in office.
Anyway here is a survey (Demos 2011) which has some data in re EDl educational levels
love detective
there's no love too small
Nice one
Well-Known Member
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
No-one has ever accused the EDL of practising critical thinking when enunciating their politics.
albionism
A successful virus clinging to a speck of mud.
yeah, i noticedYou're half a day late with that info!
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
Lennon has been heard on a few of his "broadcasts" talking about having links with people behind the scenes who are in his words "educated". Didn't a gaggle of them meet at a flat in the Barbican when they were on the up?
If that's your personal experience, fine. Mine is different though
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
The working class are still heavily unrepresented in the 'posh' universities.
How many working class undergraduates at Oxford? In 2010 it was just 11.5%. Then, in total an average of 32.3% across all the university's.
In total, 37% of the UK's population was estimated to come from "routine manual occupations" (from the Higher Education Statistics Agency, of students entering full-time education for the first time in 2008-09).
Medicine, dentistry and veterinary sciences - just 18.2% of students coming from working class backgrounds. Figures for historical and philosophical studies also low, then at 24.2%. Languages at 25.9%.
Professor of Geography at Sheffield University, pointed out in a Guardian article in 2010: "Oxford doesn't have a university as far as working class children of that town are concerned." I'm sure the working class of Oxford are well aware of the university there, but access to it is denied them.
There has been improvement since the 1930's, but now that's all changed and a backward movement is very likely.
juice_terry
Here is a man who would not take it anymore.
There have been several occasions when myself and others have been mistaken for fash purely on the basis of how we look/dress and the fact that we are white working class and have not had an education through the universities .. by those on the left.. intersol has it spot on..you're right about a lot of those present at the weekend at Brighton they would have been from the backgrounds you describe and may possibly have mistaken the likes of myself and other seasoned anti-fascists as "the enemy"
tony.c
Well-Known Member
^ Unfortunately it has been like that for a long time. Most of the guys (and I'm not being sexist but they were usually male) who were the most militant antifascists, were working class and hated the fascists and knew what had to be done.
But they were derided by most on the left as being 'macho', just out for a fight, and 'non-political'. I am proud they stood up and defeated the fascists time after time, regardless of the cost.
Respect to you juice_terry, and your comrades.
No pasaran!
.
But they were derided by most on the left as being 'macho', just out for a fight, and 'non-political'. I am proud they stood up and defeated the fascists time after time, regardless of the cost.
Respect to you juice_terry, and your comrades.
No pasaran!
.
miktheword
Well-Known Member
yep, this happened many times, by the OB, Fash and lefties on days out. always to our advantage on the day
One day I remember, trying to find the God forsaken empty boozer in Islington that was to be our redirection point, I thought I'd ask this crowd of lefties if they knew where it was..'why?' came the reply, as I was surrounded by 30 pencil necks..one fella recognised me and pointed to where it was and I was saved from being heckled and jostled to death.
An hour later, whilst we were standing outside another boozer, a fash arrived, had a look and was so confident that we must be his lot, he was smiling and about to offer his hand in friendship moments before being acquainted with the pavement.
A point that I will hesitantly make though, regarding dress, is that the favoured attire of the stereotypical anti establishment (often youthful) leftie, allows the label 'smelly, crustie' to be applied..and the subsequent easier dismissal of their political views they hold, in the eyes of the viewing working class who are the constituency we want to recruit from. This is not to slate anarchists (many who didn't dress like that and even many who did, were heroes for the anti fascist cause; even in RA, some of us were more sartorially elegant than others, but all would undoubtedly be viewed as working class by onlookers).
I do feel, that if you're from the class, you obviously dress like that class, (which can sometimes involve spending a week's wages on your threads or turning up in what you wore on site that morning) and that makes the initial discussion with potential recruits easier...and also, crucially, will have a resonance with the viewing working class youth in the area, who may have been flirting with cosying up to the BNP at the time.
And even those of us who eventually made it to Polys, accents, the 'working class way of speaking' for want of a better phrase, also gave credibility over those middle class vanguardists invading an area for the day.
ddraig
kicking against the pricks...
at the edl /non existent wdl thing in Cardiff a few years ago there were some proper anti fash skins and think some of them were from the Oppressed band who when there was something going on on the main road with a minibus full of fash who alledgedly slapped some women or gave abuse at the lights started running over from where most people were towards the incident
http://www.demotix.com/news/348554/...nce-league-demonstration-cardiff#media-348576
the minibus was stopped, see pic 5, it got smashed up bit.
there is a vid but can't find it now.
anyway the proper doers were sort of surorunded at one point by confused antis and they had to show their SHARP patches and others had to explain to those who didn't get it.
the docks boys were fucking fierce and on the case from what i saw too
http://www.demotix.com/news/348554/...nce-league-demonstration-cardiff#media-348576
the minibus was stopped, see pic 5, it got smashed up bit.
there is a vid but can't find it now.
anyway the proper doers were sort of surorunded at one point by confused antis and they had to show their SHARP patches and others had to explain to those who didn't get it.
the docks boys were fucking fierce and on the case from what i saw too
intersol32
Well-Known Member
Not the greatest book on the subject, but Matthew Collins' "Hate" is interesting in the way it shows how the Fash perceived Red Action.
There's one part where Collins asks a fellow Fascist what Red Action "look like". In response the guy passes his hand across the crowded pub and says "they look the same as anyone else in here!"
The effect that both looking, and sounding, the same as any other member of the working class almost always worked to our advantage. In the physical arena it was perfect (for example) for launching from a crowd of shoppers and laying waste to a paper sale or similar gathering. The opposition neither saw you coming and themselves along with the police were often left clueless afterwards as everyone melted back into the streets. Also, as mentioned in the above posts, during discussions with members of the public you were taken far more seriously if you could approach them as an ordinary man or woman who came from the same background and experienced the same hardships.
Unfortunately the left in general have still not learned this lesson in many ways, and it's still shot through with a certain amount of lifestyle politics and middle class types talking about "the workers".
There's one part where Collins asks a fellow Fascist what Red Action "look like". In response the guy passes his hand across the crowded pub and says "they look the same as anyone else in here!"
The effect that both looking, and sounding, the same as any other member of the working class almost always worked to our advantage. In the physical arena it was perfect (for example) for launching from a crowd of shoppers and laying waste to a paper sale or similar gathering. The opposition neither saw you coming and themselves along with the police were often left clueless afterwards as everyone melted back into the streets. Also, as mentioned in the above posts, during discussions with members of the public you were taken far more seriously if you could approach them as an ordinary man or woman who came from the same background and experienced the same hardships.
Unfortunately the left in general have still not learned this lesson in many ways, and it's still shot through with a certain amount of lifestyle politics and middle class types talking about "the workers".
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
me and raknor took a bit of friendly fire at brighton as we were 'conversing' with a fash. a couple of black blockers were shouting 'which one's the fash?' we decided next time we aint dressing so casual.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
yeah it was alan lake/ayling and a couple of others, possibly paul ray. didnt help em much tho did it?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
Mmm. With all that in mind and as I said, their hated of the country, I'd love to see the look on their faces if someone yelled "traitors" at them on their next day out...
I did once explain to an EDL goon that waving an English flag with 'England' written on it amounts to defacing the national flag which is an act of treason.
I'm pretty sure that's not true, but the look on his face was fantastic.
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
when in doubt, make it up!
intersol32
Well-Known Member
It's a very good point. Though it wouldn't be classed as "treason" it's certainly degrading it. In Ireland you'd get some severe criticism if you turned up at a Republican protest with something stamped across the Tricolour. I remember Republicans giving grief on the Falls Rd to a group of lads who were holding up a flag with a Celtic Football Club crest on it a few years ago.
It's the height of absolute idiocy for these EDL types to cry about Muslim protesters burning British flags, when they themselves are happy to scribble crap all over them or tie them round their beer soaked shoulders to wear as stupid capes etc.
intersol32
Well-Known Member
Fuck that. Go casual. Wearing a black face mask and having a backpack stamped with 'A' symbols definitely marks you out as a political opponent in the eyes of both the Fash and the police. If you get separated and left on your own during the day it'll be easier to sit tight and wait without fear of getting pigged or jumped on by Fash looking for an easy victory.
To give another example. During the Bolton NWI protest I stepped off the train in jeans and trainers with a copy of The Sun under my arm (which I fucking hate - but necessary for giving a first visual impression). I walked through the ring of Cops without anyone batting an eyelid. Obviously this didn't happen when the Anarchos landed at the bus station in the usual attire and had the police all over them before they'd even unfolded their banners. I even managed to wander around the back of the Pen where the Fash were and walk into the area their buses were parked. Had only half a dozen people had the same idea, the possibilities could have been endless....
raknor
Well-Known Member
Its a pain alright!
See we're from the time when dressing casual / working class / whatever label you put on it, was a distinct advantage when involved in anti fascist work, as intersol32's post above attests too.
I always assumed my *cough* hairstyle was a bit of a give away, that I'm probably more leftie than fash, but I obviously assumed wrong!
This and a few other recent incidents of confusion have caused me to maybe re-think my attire at certain events, but then I get pissed off and think why the hell should I change to accommodate others issues! (Although maybe I should reconsider due to age
)
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
I generally take steps to look as unremarkable as possible on these little outings. Blue jeans, trainers, plain dark top, beanie hat. Never did see the point of advertising yourself to the world as an anarchist in these situations, although I know there are some people who do so at anti-fascist actions due to simple bloody-minded refusal to dress any differently from how they always dress, or a simple lack of any non-black clothes whatsoever 
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
raknor - just seen your tweet. I hadn't seen it, but have now
http://antifascistnetwork.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/all-hail-st-edmund/
http://antifascistnetwork.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/all-hail-st-edmund/
raknor
Well-Known Member
raknor - just seen your tweet. I hadn't seen it, but have now
http://antifascistnetwork.wordpress.com/2013/04/28/all-hail-st-edmund/
Yep, that's the one! what lovely imagery as well, bloody idiots
malatesta32
Not Serb. No, Really!
I generally take steps to look as unremarkable as possible on these little outings. Blue jeans, trainers, plain dark top, beanie hat. Never did see the point of advertising yourself to the world as an anarchist in these situations, although I know there are some people who do so at anti-fascist actions due to simple bloody-minded refusal to dress any differently from how they always dress, or a simple lack of any non-black clothes whatsoever
they both have advantages: being part of the black block can avoid identification. going casual blends in. the best thing of course is to STAY IN AND AVOID TROUBLE!
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