Opinion: "The End of Meat Is Here" - NY Times

[WouldBe]

Much of sheep farming land was once forested. Those bleak moors and dales aren’t all natural environments, even though there’s a certain rugged beauty to them.

I'm pretty sure the trees weren't cut down to allow sheep to graze and sheep don't eat whole trees.

 

[editor]

The increase in wild flowers due to sheep grazing leads to an increase in insects that feed off them and hence an increase in birds that feed off the insects. So meat production can lead to an increase in wildlife. Also letting sheep graze on hillsides keeps the bracken down which would rapidly take over which AFAIK is no use for anything.

If you let cows graze you get hay meadows which again results in more wildlife not less.

How about large scale/industrial factory farming where huge amounts of meat is produced? And prairie farming? Is that all fantastic news for the local wildlife and flora and fauna, do you think?

 

[Orang Utan]

I'm pretty sure the trees weren't cut down to allow sheep to graze and sheep don't eat whole trees.

Well they were (though grouse shooting and deer hunting also caused the great chop down)

 

[editor]

I'm pretty sure the trees weren't cut down to allow sheep to graze and sheep don't eat whole trees.

Sorry to burst your Denial Bubble again, but...

Sheep have reduced most of our uplands to bowling greens with contours. Only the merest remnants of life persist. Spend two hours sitting in a bushy suburban garden and you are likely to see more birds and of a greater range of species than in walking five miles across almost any part of the British uplands. The land has been sheepwrecked.

Meet the greatest threat to our countryside: sheep

The section of the A83 that runs between Loch Long and Loch Fyne in western Scotland is known as the Rest and Be Thankful. It would be better described as the Get the Hell out of Here. For this, as far as I can tell, is the British trunk road most afflicted by landslips. The

www.spectator.co.uk

 

[editor]

And:

Farmers argue that keeping sheep in the hills makes an essential contribution to Britain’s food supply. But does it? Just over three quarters of the area of Wales is devoted to livestock farming, largely to produce meat. But according to the UK’s National Ecosystem Assessment, Wales imports by value seven times as much meat as it exports. This remarkable fact suggests a shocking failure of productivity.


That’s not quite the end of the issue. Deep vegetation on the hills absorbs rain when it falls and releases it gradually, delivering a steady supply of water to the lowlands. When grazing prevents trees and shrubs from growing, and when the small sharp hooves of sheep compact the soil, rain flashes off the hills, causing floods downstream. When the floods abate, water levels fall rapidly. Upland grazing, in other words, contributes to a cycle of flood and drought. This restricts the productivity of more fertile lands downstream, both drowning them and depriving them of irrigation water. Given the remarkably low output in the upland areas of Britain, it is within the range of possibility that hill farming creates a net loss of food.

 

[Orang Utan]

If you’re gonna argue about meat production at least have a clue about it, WouldBe

 

[Orang Utan]

I’m a meat eater but I get fed up with meat eaters whose argument for carrying on eating all the meat never seems to extend beyond ‘I like meat’. They’re especially clutching-at-straws ostrich-head-burying when it comes to the environmental impact of industrial meat and dairy production

 

[WouldBe]

Sorry to burst your Denial Bubble again, but...

Meet the greatest threat to our countryside: sheep

The section of the A83 that runs between Loch Long and Loch Fyne in western Scotland is known as the Rest and Be Thankful. It would be better described as the Get the Hell out of Here. For this, as far as I can tell, is the British trunk road most afflicted by landslips. The

www.spectator.co.uk

If you see very little wildlife in a 5 mile walk across the moors you must be doing it with your eyes shut. There is plenty of wildlife up there if you bothered looking.

 

[Orang Utan]

If you see very little wildlife in a 5 mile walk across the moors you must be doing it with your eyes shut. There is plenty of wildlife up there if you bothered looking.

That’s not the point. Stop with your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible. Accept that industrial meat production is A Very Bad Thing and get on with your life instead of going lalalalala I’m not listening

 

[WouldBe]

That’s not the point. Stop with your desperate attempts to defend the indefensible. Accept that industrial meat production is A Very Bad Thing and get on with your life instead of going lalalalala I’m not listening

Where the fuck have I said industrial scale meat production is good? I haven't because I don't support it. And I'm aware of meat production in the UK because I've helped out on livestock farms previously not just read bullshit on the internet.

 

[Orang Utan]

Where the fuck have I said industrial scale meat production is good? I haven't because I don't support it. And I'm aware of meat production in the UK because I've helped out on livestock farms previously not just read bullshit on the internet.

Then why are you continuing with your pro-mass meat production bullshit?

 

[WouldBe]

Then why are you continuing with your pro-mass meat production bullshit?

I'm not FFS. I'm advocating normal production of meat where the animals get to graze in the open air eating what they normally eat not byproducts of human food or being pumped full of steroids and antibiotics and under a better welfare system than currently exists.

 

[ddraig]

I'm not FFS. I'm advocating normal production of meat where the animals get to graze in the open air eating what they normally eat not byproducts of human food or being pumped full of steroids and antibiotics and under a better welfare system than currently exists.

No you're being contrary and trying to do a gotcha, tediously

 

[Jeff Robinson]

I'm not FFS. I'm advocating normal production of meat where the animals get to graze in the open air eating what they normally eat not byproducts of human food or being pumped full of steroids and antibiotics and under a better welfare system than currently exists.

'normal production' includes selective breeding, artificial insemination, branding, mutilating, forced mother child separation, extermination of 'surplus' male offspring, the exploitation of the reproductive systems of female animals, starvation, cramming animals into trucks and having them industrially slaughtered in killing factories. There's no nice ways to massacre them for our trivial palate preferences.

 

[editor]

If you see very little wildlife in a 5 mile walk across the moors you must be doing it with your eyes shut. There is plenty of wildlife up there if you bothered looking.

From the Ecologist:

As with other forms of animal agriculture, raising sheep for wool gobbles up precious resources. Land is cleared and trees are cut down to make room for grazing, leading to increased soil salinity and erosion and a decrease in biodiversity.

Sheep, like cows, release enormous amounts of methane gas into the atmosphere and have been referred to as the "Humvees" of the animal kingdom.

Manure generated by farmed animals – including in countries like Australia and New Zealand, where vast flocks of sheep have been expanded to meet the world's demand for wool –has significantly contributed to the increase in atmospheric greenhouse gases over the last 250 years.

On top of the horrendous environmental impact of wool, sheep suffer terribly in the industry.


PETA has released video exposés recorded at nearly 100 facilities on four continents revealing that sheep are mutilated, abused, and skinned alive – even for "responsibly sourced" wool on disingenuously named "sustainable" farms.

Sheep are sensitive prey animals who are prone to panic when held down. This means that for millions of sheep worldwide, shearing is a terrifying, painful ordeal. Shearers are usually paid by volume, not by the hour, which exacerbates the problem, as they work at breakneck speed in order to maximise their earnings.

Eyewitnesses saw gentle sheep being kicked, punched in the face, and stamped on in a crude attempt to restrain them.

Animal cruelty

This violence has been documented in Argentina, Australia, Chile, and the US – and recently, in the UK, where workers were recorded slamming sheep's heads into the floor.

Shearers left large, bloody wounds on sheep's bodies from fast, rough shearing, and they stitched up gaping wounds with a needle and thread and no pain relief. One farmer was seen dragging two sick, lame sheep into a shed and leaving them there to die.

The environmental impact of wool

Far from being an eco-friendly material, wool is a nightmare for the living planet.

theecologist.org

 

[editor]

And another - conservative - report says

The number of sheep and cattle in the UK should be reduced by between a fifth and a half to help combat climate change, a report says.

The shift is needed, the government’s advisory Committee on Climate Change (CCC) maintains, because beef and lamb produce most farm greenhouse gases.

The report foresees an increase in the number of pigs and chickens because these produce less methane.

The farm union NFU said it did not agree with reducing livestock numbers.

But environmentalists say the recommendations are too timid.

The CCC says a 20-50% reduction in beef and lamb pasture could release 3-7m hectares of grassland from the current 12m hectares in the UK.
The un-needed grassland could instead grow forests and biofuels that would help to soak up CO2.


The committee’s advice on producing less red meat is less radical than NHS Eatwell guidelines on healthy eating, which proposes a reduction in consumption of 89% for beef and 63% for lamb, and a 20% decline in dairy products.

BBC News understands that the committee have deliberately taken a more conservative position in order to minimise confrontation with the farmers’ union, the NFU.

Climate change: Report says 'cut lamb and beef'

The number of sheep and cattle in the UK should be reduced to help combat climate change, a report says.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Spymaster]

I’m a meat eater but I get fed up with meat eaters whose argument for carrying on eating all the meat never seems to extend beyond ‘I like meat’.

It's a valid position though, tbf. Once you've decided that you're prepared to exploit animals at all (and most of us do to some degree), it just becomes a case of to what extent you're comfortable with it. That's a personal choice and the spectrum varies massively.

 

[WouldBe]

From the Ecologist:

PETA has released video exposés recorded at nearly 100 facilities on four continents revealing that sheep are mutilated, abused, and skinned alive – even for "responsibly sourced" wool on disingenuously named "sustainable" farms.

Sheep are sensitive prey animals who are prone to panic when held down. This means that for millions of sheep worldwide, shearing is a terrifying, painful ordeal.

Sheep are not skinned alive for their wool it would kill them then you don't get any more wool FFS.

As for not shearing them it would be crueller to not shear them. Having to carry around Kgs of extra fleece making walking difficult and risking broken legs and joint problems. More vulnerable to heat stroke and death and fly strike resulting in the sheep being eaten alive by maggots.

 

[editor]

Sheep are not skinned alive for their wool it would kill them then you don't get any more wool FFS.

As for not shearing them it would be crueller to not shear them. Having to carry around Kgs of extra fleece making walking difficult and risking broken legs and joint problems. More vulnerable to heat stroke and death and fly strike resulting in the sheep being eaten alive by maggots.

So they're actually better off being 'mutilated, abused, and skinned alive' in your opinion, yes?

 

[WouldBe]

'normal production' includes selective breeding, artificial insemination, branding, mutilating, forced mother child separation, extermination of 'surplus' male offspring, the exploitation of the reproductive systems of female animals, starvation, cramming animals into trucks and having them industrially slaughtered in killing factories. There's no nice ways to massacre them for our trivial palate preferences.

Cows on farms only give birth once a year. Left to their own devices a cow can become pregnant again within 24 days of giving birth.

 

[editor]

Cows on farms only give birth once a year. Left to their own devices a cow can become pregnant again within 24 days of giving birth.

Are you actually arguing that cows in the wild normally become pregnant again within 24 days of giving birth, and do so throughout their entire fertile life?

This sound natural to you?

However for management purposes, some operations use synthetic hormones to synchronize their cows or heifers to have them breed and calve at the ideal times. These hormones are short term and only used when necessary. For example, one common protocol for synchronization involves an injection of GnRH (gonadotrophin releasing hormone). which increases the levels of follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone in the body. Then, seven days later prostaglandin F2-alpha is injected, followed by another GnRH injection 48 hours later. This protocol causes the animal to ovulate 24 hours later

Dairy cattle - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[belboid]

So they're actually better off being 'mutilated, abused, and skinned alive' in your opinion, yes?

PETA stopped running that campaign after it was shown to be rather disingenuous. They objected to the Australian practise of removing strips of skin around the buttocks. However they didn’t realise that it is important in stopping the even more debilitating effects of flystrike. It’s far from the first or last time they’ve made such nonsense claims (milk causes cancer being another one)

 

[ska invita]

It wasn't meant to be - it's the basis of holistic regenerative agriculture (which doesn't work everywhere, but has had noteworthy effects)
Before and after holistic grazing management (Zimbabwe):
View attachment 239734

Thats zero to do with modern British sheep farming - you're not comparing like with like there

 

[Spymaster]

Sheep are not skinned alive for their wool it would kill them then you don't get any more wool FFS.

It's utter bullshit like this that causes non-loons to switch off immediately at the mention of PETA.

 

[editor]

PETA stopped running that campaign after it was shown to be rather disingenuous. They objected to the Australian practise of removing strips of skin around the buttocks. However they didn’t realise that it is important in stopping the even more debilitating effects of flystrike. It’s far from the first or last time they’ve made such nonsense claims (milk causes cancer being another one)

Regardless of PETA fucking up one story, there's still plenty of evidence of animal malpractice, bad practice and cruelty in what is - by definition - a cruel industry.

 

[belboid]

Regardless of PETA fucking up one story, there's still plenty of evidence of animal malpractice, bad practice and cruelty in what is - by definition - a cruel industry.

There is, absolutely. But PETA have a long history of similar fuck ups and shouldn’t be quoted without double checking what they say first, IMO

 

[editor]

There is, absolutely. But PETA have a long history of similar fuck ups and shouldn’t be quoted without double checking what they say first, IMO

Tbf, I was quoting the Ecologist. I assumed that they might have fact checked the story. Which parts of the Ecologist's article are incorrect?

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

As for not shearing them it would be crueller to not shear them. Having to carry around Kgs of extra fleece making walking difficult and risking broken legs and joint problems. More vulnerable to heat stroke and death and fly strike resulting in the sheep being eaten alive by maggots.

That's because we've bred them to produce more wool than wild sheep, just as we've bred poultry that have more breast meat. When they reach a certain weight, they are so top-heavy, they fall over into the muck they're living in. We've changed their genetics in ways that aren't good for the animal's welfare.

 

[belboid]

Tbf, I was quoting the Ecologist. I assumed that they might have fact checked the story. Which parts of the Ecologist's article are incorrect?

They should when the author of the piece is a peta employee (which a quick google suggests she is), I suspect the bit you quoted is.

 

[editor]

They should when the author of the piece is a peta employee (which a quick google suggests she is), I suspect the bit you quoted is.

I was careful to include plenty of links to documented evidence in my quote. I took a look at some of them and it seemed real - and horrific - enough to me.

It doesn't matter if she's a PETA employee or not if what she is posting up is correct, and supported by evidence.