Olympics 2024 - General Discussion

[littlebabyjesus]

I read that they failed a test to prove eligibility for women's boxing previously? Will go and dig out where I read it.....

I don't know the details of this particular case, but it appears to be a case involving an intersex condition and not to do with transgender issues. Really important not to elide the two. Dealing with intersex conditions in sport is fraught enough.

 

[Aladdin]

The IBA decision has been widely criticised and they didnt release their evidence. The IOC says it was due to testosterone. Either way, having an XY chromosome doesnt actually affect anything in itself, it is merely an indicator that something might need further checks.

I thought xy chromosomes meant male? No?

Not commenting on the boxer in question. They have been allowed to take part so they clearly must have a right to be there. But she does look to have a height and strength advantage in the photo spellbinder posted. And I don't think it was ok to punch the Italian boxer right into the face..

Kellie Harrington beat Khalif before.. can't remember when ..maybe the last Olympics? I hope she beats her again.

 

[Jimmy Don't]

I don't know the details of this particular case, but it appears to be a case involving an intersex condition and not to do with transgender issues. Really important not to elide the two. Dealing with intersex conditions in sport is fraught enough.

Yep, and I admit to knowing not a lot. But the two fighters allowed to fight in this instance are not matched safely. That should be a given for combat sports

 

[Jimmy Don't]

I thought xy chromosomes meant male? No?

Not commenting on the boxer in question. They have been allowed to take part so they clearly must have a right to be there. But she does look to have a height and strength advantage in the photo spellbinder posted. And I don't think it was ok to punch the Italian boxer right into the face..

You can't allow someone to box and expect them not to punch someone in the face

 

[Aladdin]

It does. But I'd trust the IOC a little more than a would random know nothings from the internet.

"Khelif has been in the spotlight since being disqualified before a gold-medal match at the 2023 World Championships for failing International Boxing Association (IBA) eligibility rules that prevent athletes with XY chromosomes competing in women’s events."

Algerian boxer at centre of gender controversy advances after fight abandoned in 46 seconds

Italy’s Angela Carini stopped the fight after taking a powerful punch to the nose

www.irishtimes.com

The article goes on to say..

"She was ruled eligible, however, to compete in Paris, a competition run by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) after it stripped the IBA of international recognition last year over issues related to governance and finance."

And

"
Some sports have limited the levels of testosterone allowed for athletes competing in women’s competition, while others ban everyone who has been through male puberty.

Boxing is run by the IOC after the IBA’s recognition was stripped, and it has not updated eligibility rules but used those applied in previous Olympics.

The IOC has cleared the way for Khelif as well as Taiwan’s double world champion Lin Yu-ting, who lost her bronze medal at last year’s World Championships after she failed to meet the criteria for the same reason, to compete at the Games."

 

[belboid]

I thought xy chromosomes meant male? No?

Not commenting on the boxer in question. They have been allowed to take part so they clearly must have a right to be there. But she does look to have a height and strength advantage in the photo spellbinder posted. And I don't think it was ok to punch the Italian boxer right into the face..

Kellie Harrington beat Khalif before.. can't remember when ..maybe the last Olympics? I hope she beats her again.

XY correlates with maleness, but it doesnt have any effect upon any physical development.

Spellbinders photo is not of the people concerned.

 

[Aladdin]

I don't know the details of this particular case, but it appears to be a case involving an intersex condition and not to do with transgender issues. Really important not to elide the two. Dealing with intersex conditions in sport is fraught enough.

I know Wikipedia is not the bee all and end all but...they describe Kheli as having DSD.

"Khelif is not transgender, but has a disorder of sex development (DSD), which causes some females to have XY chromosomes and blood testosterone levels typical of a male."

 

[Aladdin]

XY correlates with maleness, but it doesnt have any effect upon any physical development.

Spellbinders photo is not of the people concerned.

I think his photo shows Khelif??

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I thought xy chromosomes meant male? No?

Not necessarily, no. There are various conditions, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome or Swyer syndrome, in which having XY chromosomes may not lead to male development and may even, in the case of Swyer syndrome, lead to the development of female genitalia, although not functioning female gonads.

Intersex conditions are varied, variable and complex, and the best way to include intersex athletes in competition isn't always obvious. But it's certainly not about chromosomes. Phenotype, not genotype, is what matters.

 

[Aladdin]

Not necessarily, no. There are various conditions, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome or Swyer syndrome, in which having XY chromosomes may not lead to male development and may even, in the case of Swyer syndrome, lead to the development of female genitalia, although not functioning female gonads.

Intersex conditions are varied, variable and complex, and the best way to include intersex athletes in competition isn't always obvious. But it's certainly not about chromosomes. Phenotype, not genotype, is what matters.

Fair enough.
I'm not a medical person so I don't know...

 

[Jimmy Don't]

Not necessarily, no. There are various conditions, such as androgen insensitivity syndrome or Swyer syndrome, in which having XY chromosomes may not lead to male development and may even, in the case of Swyer syndrome, lead to the development of female genitalia, although not functioning female gonads.

Intersex conditions are varied, variable and complex, and the best way to include intersex athletes in competition isn't always obvious. But it's certainly not about chromosomes. Phenotype, not genotype, is what matters.

Is an intersex category a possible solution?

 

[JimW]

More guns needed.

 

[Aladdin]

Is an intersex category a possible solution?

Maybe boxers should all be tested for testosterone and ranked for fights according to their testosterone levels?

 

[belboid]

View attachment 436056
More guns needed.

If only they'd held it in a school....

 

[bcuster]

Notre Dame would rank 10th in medal standings if it was a country with Guiliano's silver

Chris Guiliano's silver medal in 800-meter freestyle relay is fifth for Notre Dame at the Paris Olympics. Still competing in five events

www.indystar.com

Eight miles from the medieval cathedral Notre-Dame, the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame are making history at the Paris Olympics.
As of late Tuesday night, Notre Dame would rank 10th in the medal standings if it were a separate country, behind Canada’s six medals.

 

[belboid]

Notre Dame would rank 10th in medal standings if it was a country with Guiliano's silver

Chris Guiliano's silver medal in 800-meter freestyle relay is fifth for Notre Dame at the Paris Olympics. Still competing in five events

www.indystar.com

Eight miles from the medieval cathedral Notre-Dame, the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame are making history at the Paris Olympics.
As of late Tuesday night, Notre Dame would rank 10th in the medal standings if it were a separate country, behind Canada’s six medals.


View attachment 436061

well behind Yorkshire

 

[bcuster]

well behind Yorkshire

Good one!

 

[Jimmy Don't]

Maybe boxers should all be tested for testosterone and ranked for fights according to their testosterone levels?

To me it would make more sense to keep the current categories, but recognise a third and add it.

 

[smokedout]

I feel really sorry for Khelif. She's not transgender but a load of anti trans people are slagging her off, including the usual suspects. Maybe these people banging on with the "it's not fair!", Sharon Davis, JK Rowling etc would get listened to a bit more if they tried treating EVERYONE like a human being with basic respect.
Find it a bit disappointing that the BBC are still employing Sharon Davis in front of the camera, this Olympics, but then, the anti trans mob would just scream even louder if they didn't.

The current dominant gender critical position seems to be that intersex people don't exist, there are only males and females with disorders of sex development. This means if they decide someone is a disordered male (by whatever arbitary way they are currently categorising that), but they live as female, they are basically reduced to the same status as a trans women and should be referred to by male pronouns, stay out of women's spaces etc.

 

[smokedout]

To me it would make more sense to keep the current categories, but recognise a third and add it.

Intersex conditions vary and can have vastly different effects on development. To just have a category of 'intersex' would be absurd.

 

[Jimmy Don't]

Intersex conditions vary and can have vastly different effects on development. To just have a category of 'intersex' would be absurd.

Bow to your clearly far better knowledge to be honest, but think the matching in that fight yesterday was absurd too. The Italian had no chance of winning and every chance of getting seriously hurt

 

[smokedout]

Bow to your clearly far better knowledge to be honest, but think the matching in that fight yesterday was absurd too.

We can't possibly know that. We don't even know for sure if she is intersex, what condition she has or what her testosterone levels are. We don't know anything other than some vaguely worded statement from a corrupt and discredited organisation, and that she is legally female in a country which does not permit gender ressignment. She's fought in female boxing for several years and has both won and lost fights.

Anyway I don't want to disrupt and Olympics thread, I don't really care about them that much, but the abuse and nastiness that has been dished out to this woman purely based on guesswork and speculation is vile.

 

[souljacker]

well behind Yorkshire

and Caversham

 

[Aladdin]

the abuse and nastiness that has been dished out to this woman purely based on guesswork and speculation is vile.

Not on here...to be fair

 

[QueenOfGoths]

I'm very much the Women's Gymnastics. I also really like the commentators, they're very good at explaining how additional marks can be gained, or lost.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

The entire trans/intersex/XY arguments can be ignored, boxing only works as a contest when the fighters are equally matched physically, that’s kinda the point of it. The two women were clearly mismatched and the fight shouldn’t have happened.

 

[Sue]

Eight miles from the medieval cathedral Notre-Dame, the Fighting Irish of Notre Dame are making history at the Paris Olympics.
As of late Tuesday night, Notre Dame would rank 10th in the medal standings if it were a separate country, behind Canada’s six medals.


View attachment 436061

I think the French would probably be horrified by their pronunciation though. ('Nauter daim' or something iirc from The West Wing. )

 

[Boo Radley75]

I'm very much the Women's Gymnastics. I also really like the commentators, they're very good at explaining how additional marks can be gained, or lost.

My daughter does gymnastics and competed in her first competition last month. It's lovely being able to watch this with her and hopefully inspire her. She understands the scoring more than I do and she's only 6 so nice to have her teach me something for a change.

 

[JimW]

The entire trans/intersex/XY arguments can be ignored, boxing only works as a contest when the fighters are equally matched physically, that’s kinda the point of it. The two women were clearly mismatched and the fight shouldn’t have happened.

I don't get this, it is segregated by category.

 

[Elpenor]

caught up with a colleague yesterday who went to Paris for the first weekend and saw the men’s sevens final, apparently the atmosphere was insane

Now watching Dan Evans and Andy Murray in the tennis quarter finals, they are 0-4 down in the first set which isn’t a great start