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NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]

Well, I'm going to take my own advice now. I appreciate what you're saying but I don't think that excluding certain people from debates (and lets face it its not like he's trying to sneak into some closed socialist meeting in disguise, is it?) on open internet forums is going to achieve anything. Additionally, if it were decided that certain people were not welcome in certain topics name calling is hardly the way to go about dealing with enforcing it, is it?

Anything further to that is not relevent to this topic and I won't defend my point any further.
 
radio_atomica said:
So if he can't engage in a sensible debate why not just walk away from it? What purpose does name calling serve other than to make the people doing it look like nobs?
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I want to talk about law and order stuff. I can't because he turns every thread to shit. Me walking away changes nothing except stopping me and others talking about what we want. I gave you dome context and some background because you're obviously in need of it as regards this poster.

And look, here i am as well, discussing this knob.
 
butchersapron said:
With other people. Is this your first time on a d-b thread? Go look at the graveyard of threads destroyed by him in p&p before taking this utopian position.
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My point is, if you literally just ignore him, you don't need to tell him to fuck off there will be no fuel for his fire. That doesn't stop you talking to other people, does it?

Anyway, on a totally different subject, does anyone know what is actually going to happen when tutition fees go up? Are students really going to take out loans to cover them or will they abandon their studies instead? What impact will that have on benefits claimed as there are unlikely to be loads of jobs about for them to do instead?
 
His fuel doesn't come from people telling him to fuck off but from people disagreeing with him. And no, individual ignorals have not worked at all.

What effect will it have? Poorer people dropping out, not applying or fucking up their degrees through over-work. Better off people relying on parents and doing ok. Class polarisation to pre-ww2 levels.
 
butchersapron said:
His fuel doesn't come from people telling him to fuck off but from people disagreeing with him. And no, individual ignorals have not worked at all.

What effect will it have? Poorer people dropping out, not applying or fucking up their degrees through over-work. Better off people relying on parents and doing ok. Class polarisation to pre-ww2 levels.
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I realise that will be the general overall effect. I've not really thought to ask any of the students I know what they will actually do when push comes to shove. Also would be interested to see if anyone's done any clever sums that illustrate what additional strain students dropping out or not applying in the first place will put on the benefits system in general.
 
radio_atomica said:
I realise that will be the general overall effect. I've not really thought to ask any of the students I know what they will actually do when push comes to shove. Also would be interested to see if anyone's done any clever sums that illustrate what additional strain students dropping out or not applying in the first place will put on the benefits system in general.
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On a purely personal level, it's made my son very wary and concerned about the possibility of going to university next year and finding himself owing 10's of thousands of pounds by the time he's finished his studies. We, his parents, aren't in a position to say "Don't worry about it son" because we're not rich enough to have a few thousand lying idle.

I would imagine that there are similar concerns amongst many of his peer group, from what he's said. So basically, students from less-moneyed backgrounds are now facing an even larger disincentive to pursue higher education (and probably further education, with the EMA being scrapped and childcare provision significantly reduced). I don't think you need any clever sums to understand that tbh.
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
On a purely personal level, it's made my son very wary and concerned about the possibility of going to university next year and finding himself owing 10's of thousands of pounds by the time he's finished his studies. We, his parents, aren't in a position to say "Don't worry about it son" because we're not rich enough to have a few thousand lying idle.

I would imagine that there are similar concerns amongst many of his peer group, from what he's said. So basically, students from less-moneyed backgrounds are now facing an even larger disincentive to pursue higher education (and probably further education, with the EMA being scrapped and childcare provision significantly reduced). I don't think you need any clever sums to understand that tbh.
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My parents were really proud when I went to uni. I managed to leave a life framed by YTS schemes, the dole and shitty factory jobs to try and realise something of my potential. I think I'm quite smart academically and if I had been faced with a life of massive debt I may never have considered uni.
My son is very gifted, consistantly top scores at school which he breezes through, a head for maths and science and given the opportunity a chance at a good life. Whatever the cost I will do my best to ensure he gets those chances but It breaks my heart to think he will only do that by taking on a life of debt.
 
dylans said:
My parents were really proud when I went to uni. I managed to leave a life framed by YTS schemes, the dole and shitty factory jobs to try and realise something of my potential. I think I'm quite smart academically and if I had been faced with a life of massive debt I may never have considered uni.
My son is very gifted, consistantly top scores at school which he breezes through, a head for maths and science and given the opportunity a chance at a good life. Whatever the cost I will do my best to ensure he gets those chances but It breaks my heart to think he will only do that by taking on a life of debt.
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Onto the streets on the 24th then.
 
radio_atomica said:
I realise that will be the general overall effect. I've not really thought to ask any of the students I know what they will actually do when push comes to shove. Also would be interested to see if anyone's done any clever sums that illustrate what additional strain students dropping out or not applying in the first place will put on the benefits system in general.
Click to expand...

I guess all fees will be paid upfront by the SLC so it won't be a case of students having less money while studying, just coming out with larger debt. Also when they change tuition fees it stays as it was for current students, they just bring in the changes for new intakes, so anyone studying now won't be affected.

Can't imagine there would be many people at all who would want that level of debt, when they came out the other end. As it is now it's pretty daunting tbh.
 
butchersapron said:
Right, those involved in anti-cuts alliances, what link ups have you managed to achieve with students or student groups? What are your plans to ensure there's link ups?
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I'm HAPS (Haringey); One of our main activists is a UCU branch sec at tyhe main FE here, so she's following that up. We also had a strong student presence on our demo in october, and I'll be hopefully establishing links with Middlesex Uni SU this week. Having said that, we're fairly hamstrung in that there's only one (small) campus in the whole borough.
 
I don't know if anyone can help, but I dimly remember the Student Loans Company being prepped as one of the organisations up for privatisation at some point... anyone know what's happening with that? What with the increased fees and much higher interest rates it's going to be a nice little earner for someone. Worth watching whose hands it ends up in- I'm guessing there are more than a few in the Tories' Leader's Group who wouldn't mind a piece of it.
 
creak said:
I don't know if anyone can help, but I dimly remember the Student Loans Company being prepped as one of the organisations up for privatisation at some point... anyone know what's happening with that? What with the increased fees and much higher interest rates it's going to be a nice little earner for someone. Worth watching whose hands it ends up in- I'm guessing there are more than a few in the Tories' Leader's Group who wouldn't mind a piece of it.
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It's allready a not for profit company.
 
Yes, it's being flogged off -a revunue producing asset is going to be sold so the private sector can take that revenue - see also the tote and Royal Mail.
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
On a purely personal level, it's made my son very wary and concerned about the possibility of going to university next year and finding himself owing 10's of thousands of pounds by the time he's finished his studies.
Click to expand...

Tell him not to worry, he already owes the government £100,000 or so, so another few grand is neither here nor there.
 
dylans said:
My son is very gifted, consistantly top scores at school which he breezes through, a head for maths and science and given the opportunity a chance at a good life. Whatever the cost I will do my best to ensure he gets those chances but It breaks my heart to think he will only do that by taking on a life of debt.
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reading this, and Paulie |Tandoori's post, makes me so fucking angry on your behalf. It really does.
 
love detective said:
Never thought I'd see the day where I pretty much agreed with everything written by a student class war group! But I have to say most of that was spot on

Has anything been done across anti-cuts groups to establish any kind of legal/financial/practical support group/funds for anyone nicked yesterday/going ahead ?

Not only important from the practical point of view of individuals concerned, but also to prevent this being driven into a single issue/narrow focus type thing around students - as butchers mentioned earlier - the awareness of a lot of students of the wider picture has been pretty impressive, ditto their distancing from the NUS as a mediating/controlling body - both these things seem to have taken a lot of us, rather pleasantly, by surprise - so it would seem appropriate to show as much support as possible to those doing what we all thought would never be done. Any 'them and us' that develops should squarely have pricks like porter in the them camp, rather than 'students' in general as 'them'

Ideally solidarity actions shouldn't be contained to just coming from students (and even less the institutional student unions) per the request from the leeds class war student, but spread out across the wider anti-cuts 'movement' to keep the thing focussed on what it's about
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I thought I should put this up in response to your Q re; legal support.
This, btw, is the post that caused those poor sensitive ickle petals in the Met to get Fitwatch pulled, but it's been posted in so many other places by now, I can't see it causing a problem by being posted here.
Were you or anyone you know at the National March against Cuts or at the Conservative HQ in Millbank London ?
Posted on November 10, 2010 by nov10
WERE YOU OR ANYONE YOU KNOW AT THE MARCH AGAINST TUITION FEES OR NEAR TO THE CONSERVATIVE HQ AT MILLBANK ON 10TH NOVEMBER 2010?

Last updated at 14:22 on Friday 12th November 2010

SEE YOUR OR YOUR FRIENDS’ FACE HERE?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pic...-recognise-these-student-rioters.html?image=1

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ST-Hardcore-leaders-student-mob-unmasked.html

******DO NOT PANIC. FIRST READ THIS******

WHO ARE WE AND WHY WE ARE HERE

We are a network of people committed to unconditional solidarity with those demonstrating at the Conservative Party HQ in Millbank on 10th November 2010.

This is the least we can do. The state and corporate media have already started a campaign of repression. We have experience of dealing with state repression with defence campaigns. From the Poll Tax Rioters to the Demonstrators against the Israeli Invasion of Gaza (Dec 08-Jan 09) and the EDO Decommissioners (Jan 09-May 2010) experience tells us you should be calm and careful what you say and do from now on.
Irrespective of whether you did anything you feel was criminal, the fact that you were at the Conservative HQ on the day in question means you will be treated as a criminal if the police can get away with it.

-ADVICE NOW-

1. READ THIS FROM THE BRILLIANT FITWATCH BLOG

http://fitwatch.org.uk/2010/11/beating-police-repression-after-the-student-occupation.html

2. DO NOT say anything to anyone

You have the right to silence and the right not to incriminate yourself. So we recommend you do NOT. SAY NOTHING TO NO-ONE ONLINE OR OFFLINE, ON THE PHONE OR IN PERSON about the events. These are valuable resources for the Police to find you via internet trawling and phone tapping in order to pin a prosecution on you.

DO NOT SAY ANYTHING TO THE POLICE even if they say “it is in your best interests”. The Police are the arm of the State and a bureaucratic military organisation NEVER to be trusted. Even if the Police put your name and photo in the newspaper, arrest you, take your photo request a solicitor (see Christian Khan below) and demand your Solicitor advises you to say nothing. That way you can say the Solicitor advised you to say nothing in the event the State tries to infer guilty from the fact you said nothing!

Even if they have your picture, and say you committed an offence it does not mean you committed THAT offence or any offence at all. A picture of you holding an item that could cause damage to property does not amount to evidence of you causing damage with that item. So on these matters, like everything else, SAY NOTHING!

3. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL IN ATTENDING FUTURE DEMOS considering what has happened.

4. KEEP A SOLICITORS NAME AND EMERGENCY NUMBER ON YOU AT ALL TIMES

We personally recommend anyone that MAY need a solicitor to opt for Christian Khan Solicitors 020 7631 9500 (ask for Kat Craig) & on EMERGENCY 24 HOURS 07659105246 or Hodge Jones & Allen Solicitors (ask from Raj) on 08004370080 or 07659111192.

5. DO STAY WITH FRIENDS UNASSOCIATED WITH THE DEMO OR CAMPAIGN SO YOU ARE NOT ISOLATED IF ARRESTED

6. IF THE NEWSPAPERS NAME AND DEFAME YOU DO PURSUE A NO-WIN NO-FEE CLAIM AGAINST THEM FOR DEFAMATION (LIBEL)

Already people are pursuing the Torygraph and the Daily Wail for defamation. We recommend Carter Ruck for making claims.

Leo.Dawkins@carter-ruck.com

7. WE ARE HERE TO HELP BUT ONLY CONTACT US AFTER CREATING A NEW EMAIL ADDRESS WITH A DIFFERENT NAME AND FACEBOOK

The mere fact that we are advertising ourselves as a place to get help means that the Police will attempt to gain access to our accounts to identify people to pin prosecutions upon.

If you want to contact us,

(i) go to a location unrelated to you – i.e. unrelated to your home, work, educational establishment or family/friends.

(ii) use private browsing (so no cookies are left)

(iii) create a new email address, and facebook

(iv) then contact us

8. KEEP LOOKING AT THIS WEBSITE (the one linked to below, that is)

In the coming weeks we will provide more information but sign up to keep updated.
If you have any questions and would like ANY HELP please contact us. If there is anything you would like to talk about in person please arrange to meet.
We will be raising funds and collating evidence for defence cases and will be in touch with further information in the coming weeks.

Stay in Touch

In Solidarity

http://nov10.wordpress.com/
 
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