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NUS national protest against the cuts 10.11.10 [London]

goebfwai said:
With such massive increases in the cost of University study, it is understandable that many students are upset and aggrieved. But the scenes of violence and wanton vandalism seen in London last week (including the appalling act of a fire extinguisher thrown from a roof top, which could have killed a student protestor, journalist or police officer) are not the answer. Follow the path of peace and love as epitomised by notable figures such as Gandhi, Jesus, Mandela, Martin Luther King and Aung Sang Suu Kyi.
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Jesus was crucified wasn't he? And weren't Ghandi and Martin Luther King assassinated?

I assume that's the same Ghandi who offered this sage-like advice to the British when the Nazis were trying to invade: "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."

Along with this comment on the Jews of Europe: "Hitler killed five million Jews. It is the greatest crime of our time. But the Jews should have offered themselves to the butcher’s knife. They should have thrown themselves into the sea from cliffs... It would have aroused the world and the people of Germany... As it is they succumbed anyway in their millions."

Are we really supposed to take this seriously?
 
goebfwai said:
With such massive increases in the cost of University study, it is understandable that many students are upset and aggrieved. But the scenes of violence and wanton vandalism seen in London last week
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Try looking up 'wanton' before you next thinking of using it.

Follow the path of peace and love as epitomised by notable figures such as Gandhi, Jesus, Mandela, Martin Luther King and Aung Sang Suu Kyi.
Click to expand...
Gandhi, who said: "I always thought that I would have to wait till the country was ready for a non-violent struggle. But my attitude has undergone a change. I feel that if I continue to wait I might have to wait till doomsday. [...] We have to take the risk of violence to shake off the great calamity of slavery. [...] And therefore I have to take a risk, if I cannot curb their violence. I cannot remain inactive. I will certainly launch a non-violent movement. But if people do not understand it and there is violence, how can I stop it? I will prefer anarchy to the present system of administration because this ordered anarchy is worse than real anarchy. I am sure that the anarchy created by our efforts to mitigate this dangerous anarchy will be less dangerous. The violence exerted then would be just a trifle compared to the existing violence."

Nelson Mandela who led a bombing campaign by the armed wing of the ANC? Who rejected an offer to be released from prison if he denounced the use of political violence? That Nelson Mandela?

And Jesus, as in "I came not to bring peace, but with a sword" ?
 
revol68 said:
Ghandhi really was a cunt, political violence against oppression is bad, beating your wife is good.
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It's not like India got independence without violent protest - and his Hindu nationalism had a large part to play in partition (ah, what a great solution that has been down the ages),
 
magneze said:
Who ultimately benefits from these changes though? I can't see the reasoning.
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If only the wealthiest can afford a university education they have a monopoly on high-powered jobs. In addition, it is very difficult to make an educated populace vote against their own interests, a less well educated population is easier to manipulate and if funding is cut in education income tax doesn't have to be as high. Guess who benefits the most from low income tax rates.
 
I am not suggesting that Gandhi, Mandela et al are perfect - few would.

But most people would agree that in the struggles they undertook, in the movements they became figure heads in, they endeavoured - on the whole - to do so non-violently, with peace, love and respect for humanity - including their perceived enemies and adversaries. They may never have achieved that all of the time, but the key point is their movements were never ever short-sightedly sidelined or quagmired by short term hysterics or theatrics. They kept an eye on the long goal, and paid attention to how ill thought out actions and behaviours might play into their opponents hands. And how these actions might be mediated, viewed in the wider world by the public, and used to discredit their movements.

It could be argued that a protest, even a temporary, symbolic, vandalism free occupation are largely centre ground activities, that few people in the wider world of non activists (which is the majority of people) would disagree with or take umbrage to. But the vandalism was going a bit far. And the throwing of the fire extinguisher off the roof was an absolute disgrace, and should be condoned by no-one.

Such actions could potentially hang like an albatross around the necks of any future student anti-cuts protests, haunting and marginalising public support for the movement. If continued, it could ultimately cause the highly counterproductive side-lining of the actual issue that is the focus of the protest, and - even worse - manufacture public consent for a state crackdown, and possibly in time a heavy handed one.

Surely this then makes it absolutely essential that some sort of discipline is restored and code of conduct maintained on any future protest?
 
At the anti-cuts meeting I was at yesterday, one person condemned the occupation and "violence" on Wednesday. At least five condoned it.
 
The extinguisher incident was a fucking stupid act which i doubt anyone supports. However, the events of the demo at millbank did considerably more to catapult not only the student's cause but also the wider reality of the cuts program into public conscience than a polite walk around the block would have done. It may also help to remind those fuckers that people will only put up with being sidelined and ignored by their elected 'representatives' for so long...
 
goebfwai said:
I am not suggesting that Gandhi, Mandela et al are perfect - few would.

But most people would agree that in the struggles they undertook, in the movements they became figure heads in, they endeavoured - on the whole - to do so non-violently, with peace, love and respect for humanity - including their perceived enemies and adversaries. They may never have achieved that all of the time, but the key point is their movements were never ever short-sightedly sidelined or quagmired by short term hysterics or theatrics. They kept an eye on the long goal, and paid attention to how ill thought out actions and behaviours might play into their opponents hands. And how these actions might be mediated, viewed in the wider world by the public, and used to discredit their movements.

It could be argued that a protest, even a temporary, symbolic, vandalism free occupation are largely centre ground activities, that few people in the wider world of non activists (which is the majority of people) would disagree with or take umbrage to. But the vandalism was going a bit far. And the throwing of the fire extinguisher off the roof was an absolute disgrace, and should be condoned by no-one.

Such actions could potentially hang like an albatross around the necks of any future student anti-cuts protests, haunting and marginalising public support for the movement. If continued, it could ultimately cause the highly counterproductive side-lining of the actual issue that is the focus of the protest, and - even worse - manufacture public consent for a state crackdown, and possibly in time a heavy handed one.

Surely this then makes it absolutely essential that some sort of discipline is restored and code of conduct maintained on any future protest?
Click to expand...

Do you want a punch in the gob?
 
SpineyNorman said:
I assume that's the same Ghandi who offered this sage-like advice to the British when the Nazis were trying to invade: "I would like you to lay down the arms you have as being useless for saving you or humanity. You will invite Herr Hitler and Signor Mussolini to take what they want of the countries you call your possessions...If these gentlemen choose to occupy your homes, you will vacate them. If they do not give you free passage out, you will allow yourselves, man, woman, and child, to be slaughtered, but you will refuse to owe allegiance to them."
Click to expand...

I'm not a pacifist, but I respect the pacifism of the likes of Ghandi and Tolstoy. They believed that it was better to die than to allow yourself to kill. These were the boundaries beyond which they were not willing to act. It is a kind of example-setting – presenting 'an ocean of benevolence' when faced with aggression. It's not an easy position to take up, not at all, and I admire those that do. If enough of us did, we would win out in the end – maybe they are right.
 
goebfwai said:
I am not suggesting that Gandhi, Mandela et al are perfect - few would.

But most people would agree that in the struggles they undertook, in the movements they became figure heads in, they endeavoured - on the whole - to do so non-violently, with peace, love and respect for humanity - including their perceived enemies and adversaries. They may never have achieved that all of the time, but the key point is their movements were never ever short-sightedly sidelined or quagmired by short term hysterics or theatrics. They kept an eye on the long goal, and paid attention to how ill thought out actions and behaviours might play into their opponents hands. And how these actions might be mediated, viewed in the wider world by the public, and used to discredit their movements.

It could be argued that a protest, even a temporary, symbolic, vandalism free occupation are largely centre ground activities, that few people in the wider world of non activists (which is the majority of people) would disagree with or take umbrage to. But the vandalism was going a bit far. And the throwing of the fire extinguisher off the roof was an absolute disgrace, and should be condoned by no-one.

Such actions could potentially hang like an albatross around the necks of any future student anti-cuts protests, haunting and marginalising public support for the movement. If continued, it could ultimately cause the highly counterproductive side-lining of the actual issue that is the focus of the protest, and - even worse - manufacture public consent for a state crackdown, and possibly in time a heavy handed one.

Surely this then makes it absolutely essential that some sort of discipline is restored and code of conduct maintained on any future protest?
Click to expand...

Well, as has been pointed out, Mandela certainly did not subscribe to the idea of non-violence. But let's forget about that for a moment. How many marched, peacefully, against the Iraq war? Wasn't it somewhere in the region of 2million? Where did it get us?

When fees were originally introduced, the NUS marched peacefully. Can you remember that? Is it imprinted in the public consciousness? What did it do to raise awareness? Nothing. Why? Because nobody listens when you don't kick up a stink.

On the other hand, I do not know anyone who doesn't know about last Wednesday's march. Why? Because people kicked up a fuss. It works. The "violence" of which you speak was not on actual people, it was windows. What is more violent? Smashing a couple of windows or introducing spending cuts that WILL damage real people, removing essential services from the sick, elderly and disabled? Bearing in mind how the suicide rate increased under Thatcher, this alone will cause people to DIE.

People are talking about these issues precisely because there was "violence", or rather destruction of property. Take for instance my 65 year-old church going mother, who has never had so much as a parking ticket in her life. She is 100% behind the students and approves of their techniques. When non-violent resistance has consistenly failed us, as it has in this country, what other option is there?

Please don't just say "look what Gandhi achieved" as that's utterly irrelevant. We aren't in India and we aren't fighting an imperial power that needs to withdraw in order to defend its own interests. Tell us exactly how your non-violent resistance will work - what's the plan?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
I'm not a pacifist, but I respect the pacifism of the likes of Ghandi and Tolstoy. They believed that it was better to die than to allow yourself to kill. These were the boundaries beyond which they were not willing to act. It is a kind of example-setting – presenting 'an ocean of benevolence' when faced with aggression. It's not an easy position to take up, not at all, and I admire those that do. If enough of us did, we would win out in the end – maybe they are right.
Click to expand...

I think if we'd have followed Gandhi's advice when confronted by the Nazis, rather than withdrawing in disgust at themselves, they'd just have thought, "fuck me, it's Christmas!" and killed the lot of us, particularly as Gandhi told us we should do this at the same time as refusing to submit to their rule.

If it's possible to win via non-violent method's I'd be more than happy to do so. If anyone has any ideas as to how we might actually achieve this (you say if everyone did it we'd win, but how to we persuade them? They're not even all on our side) I would be delighted to hear it, I'd much rather do it peacefully, apart from anything else fighting hurts, even when you win. :D

However, the lessons of history, and the nature of the government that is trying to inflict this on us, leads me to think that the only way we're going to get anywhere is through force. I'm not big on the idea of violence against individuals, unless it's in direct self-defence, but I have no problem with damaging property, provided it's in line with a wider strategy.
 
Gahndi would have been crushed beneath the imperial boot had he not operated against a background of the empire in serious financial peril due to wars.
 
From what I've heard and read, it sounds as if any future anti cuts protests are going to be more broad based with a larger input and participation from the Trade Union movement. I think the input from an older age group, with this type of wisdom and experience, and that kind of broadening out of the diversity of opinion on strategy and tactics etc will prove to be very important, if a more satisfactory people and planet friendly economic and policy settlement from the current coalition (or next govt) is ultimately to be achieved.
 
Daily Mirror supports the rioters:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/routledge/

As do the readers of the Daily Star:

Daily Star readers remained split last night over whether the students were right to riot, with 54% saying yes and 46% saying no.
Click to expand...

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/162571/David-Cameron-Riot-students-will-be-caught-/

Fuck the union bureaucrats and "respectable" so called "leftists" that "condemned" the "violence". Anybody who even uses the langauge of "condemnation" is most likely a fucking twat in the first place.
 
the moment that confirmed to me Aaron Porter was a cunt was when Paxman asked him to tell Clare Solomon something like how violent protest was wrong, and he turned to her and then did as he'd been asked. unbelievable that. she should of smacked the weasle shit in the gob for that.
 
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