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Now the Labour Left is stone cold dead, are the Greens the best hope for the left?

taffboy gwyrdd

Embrace the confusion!
The "left" couldnt even get a candidate on the Labour leadership slate. After 10 years of endless right wing toss, war and corruption I wont bother to state why the Labour left is a busted flush.

I see Nellist has written to todays Graun about the Glorious "New Workers Party" or something, the latest in a long line of endless frustrations to U75ers Im sure.

The old lefts politics based on class and production / consumption are stale and electorates are brainwashed against the "s" word by the establishment press.

But the worst fault is the constant failure to unify. The historic factionalism is in stark contrast to the unified Green Parties of the world whose ideas are now way more relevant.

The Green Party encapsulates the vision of the old left without the same level of beuracracy and indeed - sometimes - autocracy. But the Greens are the most capable of dealing with climate change problems caused by, not least, vast state "socialist" economies.
 
er, that would be the German Greens who voted for the war and supported the Harz laws cutting welfare would it.


But the worst fault is the constant failure to unify. The historic factionalism is in stark contrast to the unified Green Parties of the world whose ideas are now way more relevant.
 
TG - Yup. I agree...and I think that failure also extends to the anarchists (though to a lesser degree).

Thats why I joined the Greens.

TL -
I think you'll find many (most?) of the Greens here are pretty damn critical of what Die Grunen did, and certainly want to avoid the GPEW making that mistake.
 
They probably remain, in most areas, the best vehicle for left-wing currents in this country, one thing in the favour of the Greens is that they are not tainted with the dogma and sectarianism that has blighted so many a left-wing grouping.
 
pingupete said:

...........
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I don't think the Greens have much hope of a breakthrough on a national level, i.e. electing MPs to parliament, because of our screwy voting system. They do best at local and European level.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Now the Labour Left is stone cold dead, are the Greens the best hope for the left?
Yes, probably.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
The historic factionalism is in stark contrast to the unified Green Parties of the world whose ideas are now way more relevant.
Not sure where you got the idea that the greens don't have factionalism. For example, almost from the start there has been the constant fight between the 'realos' and the 'fundies'. Realos seek to take part in coalitions while the fundies say that you should avoid compromise.
 
The greens have shown themselves quite happy to accept just about anything once they get a little power, not sure why it would be any different if they had a whole pile of power.

British politics seems to have two main directions, the fight for the centre ground most popular, and a reasonable national stance for the Scots and the Welsh.

I think the missing link is the reduction of political levels, at the moment we have local or borough council, county or municipal council, two houses of parliament, and the EU. None of these function in the sense of modern democracy, they're all expensive gravy-trains verging on the corrupt, festooned with hundreds of quangos and exist without having to satisfy the needs or wants of voters.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
The "left" couldnt even get a candidate on the Labour leadership slate. After 10 years of endless right wing toss, war and corruption I wont bother to state why the Labour left is a busted flush.

Whilst it is disappointing that McDonnell isnt a candidate its no more than that.

In other words the left in the Labour Party isnt "stone cold dead".

BarryB
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
After 10 years of endless right wing toss, war and corruption I wont bother to state why the Labour left is a busted flush.

.

I think you have to add that this applies just as much to left groups outside of Labour. Their electoral successes have been shall we say very limited.

I dont believe the Greens will ever make that breakthrough from just being an environmental pressure group.They will also not be able to capture the imagination of the working class as the Labour Party traditionally used to.

In other words they are viewed as a kind of trendy middle class, liberal alternative.
 
Matt S said:
MC5,

Actually the Leeds coalition is no longer in place.

Matt

Yeah, but isn't that because Labour gained an extra three seats in the elections two weeks ago, and the Tory/LibDem/Green coalition no longer have a majority?
 
My understanding (and as usual I have to add the usual disclaimer that I'm not from Leeds so I can only go on what I am being told) is that it has less to do with the loss of a majority, and more to do with the determination of Lib Dems/Tories to champion an incinerator.

None of that makes the several years of coalition less of a mistake, and the party needs to have a serious debate about what it means.

Matt
 
In Wales Plaid is the 'best hope' for what this thread describes as 'left currents' but I imagine in England my choice would be the Greens.
 
nightbreed said:
I dont believe the Greens will ever make that breakthrough from just being an environmental pressure group.They will also not be able to capture the imagination of the working class as the Labour Party traditionally used to.

In other words they are viewed as a kind of trendy middle class, liberal alternative.


Name an "enivronmental pressure group" with 111 councillors, 2MEPs, possible balance of power in Scotland etc.

Labour started from humble beginnings too. Greens are not especially class based in outlook, though justice means justice for the working class as much as anyone else. No one is pretending that Greens are about to sweep to power, but they still have more councillors and mommentum than any alternative. It's taken 30 years to get this far and if a unified left party suddenly appeared today it would still take quite a few election cycles to build the "brand".
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
Name an "enivronmental pressure group" with 111 councillors, 2MEPs, possible balance of power in Scotland etc.

Labour started from humble beginnings too. Greens are not especially class based in outlook, though justice means justice for the working class as much as anyone else. No one is pretending that Greens are about to sweep to power, but they still have more councillors and mommentum than any alternative. It's taken 30 years to get this far and if a unified left party suddenly appeared today it would still take quite a few election cycles to build the "brand".

Still not going to join them.They have no tradition in the Working class. If you feel that you can change that, go ahead but it is unlikely to happen.
 
It's not at all clear to me what the terms 'working class' and 'middle class' are meant to mean when they're being used in this sort of discussion.

I wonder how clear they are to anyone else?
 
Bernie. I think there have been plenty of discussions on that very subject on u75.Best check them out.

To me, politics is a class thing.
 
lewislewis said:
In Wales Plaid is the 'best hope' for what this thread describes as 'left currents' but I imagine in England my choice would be the Greens.

Agreed. Living where I do, I am thinking seriously of joining the Greens. It won't be a deep committment, but might keep some sort of politics alive here. Their attitude in Ceredigion was pretty silly, I thought, but people make mistakes. I'd prefer to be home though.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It's not at all clear to me what the terms 'working class' and 'middle class' are meant to mean when they're being used in this sort of discussion.

I wonder how clear they are to anyone else?
I've repeatedly asked for clarification myself.
 
In the absence of such clarification, one could usefully ask whether it is still in any way essential to try to construct all forms of struggle against capitalism primarily around a particular class segment concerned with factory work.

My guess is that it's not, so I think if one wishes to dismiss the Greens as a potentially useful vehicle for some forms of opposition to the neo-liberal phase of capitalism, one may need to come up with some better reasons.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It's not at all clear to me what the terms 'working class' and 'middle class' are meant to mean when they're being used in this sort of discussion.

I wonder how clear they are to anyone else?

As mud.
 
Quite. In the absence of clarification, one can only guess what is meant there.

It's probably not very important except to members of parties who are wedded to that way of thinking though.

On the other hand, if you are sceptical about the whole idea of a 'vanguard' class segment, and see more potential in bringing together all of those class segments whose interest diverges from that of neo-liberal capitalism, perhaps with the idea of reconstructing civil society out of the fragments created by division of labour, then those sorts of arguments against the potential value of political phenomena like the Greens don't really carry much weight.
 
BarryB said:
Whilst it is disappointing that McDonnell isnt a candidate its no more than that.

In other words the left in the Labour Party isnt "stone cold dead".

I reckon it's been stone dead for the last two decades. And cold for most of that time.

But I'd love to be convinced otherwise. What has the left - in or out of the Labour Party - actually achieved since, say, the 1987 election?
 
Matt S said:
... it has less to do with the loss of a majority, and more to do with the determination of Lib Dems/Tories to champion an incinerator...

So how come the Greens weren't concerned about the determination of the LibDems/Tories to champion the privatisation of the airport?

I was living in Germany when the German Greens were in government with the SPD. And the darling of the "Green left", Joschka Fischer, was foreign minister. He was a pro-imperialist who supported the bombing of Jugoslavia.

Did the Greens in England/Wales or Scotland comdemn the German Greens? We can see exactly what is meant by "unified Green Parties of the world". Unified in defence of capitalism and imperialism.
 
nightbreed said:
Still not going to join them.They have no tradition in the Working class. If you feel that you can change that, go ahead but it is unlikely to happen.

this is important ... and i doubt they can change .. they are mostly middle class who have no cnception of w/c interests ..

more worrying is the right wing types in the green movement generally whether pro capitalist or racist types

(i do though think that the greens have probably got a lot of progresives too)
 
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