New Labour government - legislative agenda

[Monkeygrinder's Organ]

I first looked up Band H charge in Kensington and Chelsea after the Grenfell Fire, and I was shocked that people in those houses pay lower council tax than people in Band H in somewhere like Basildon.

Have a look at Wandsworth if you really want a shock.

It's not really surprising though - firstly there's a lot more posh houses in Kensington as noted, and also people in rich areas have a lot less need for the services council tax pays for. Which is why rebanding isn't going to make an enormous difference IMO - you can redraw the lines but as it's still a local tax paying for local services so it's the relative local bands that matter. If K&C suddenly discovers it has a load more top band houses then they'll just go 'great, we can push the cost down' while if Hull or Darlington or wherever suddenly have way more A banded houses they'll just push it up.

 

[Chz]

I first looked up Band H charge in Kensington and Chelsea after the Grenfell Fire, and I was shocked that people in those houses pay lower council tax than people in Band H in somewhere like Basildon.

It's 3 reasons:
1 - It's mainly been a Tory stronghold over the years, full of people who don't give a shit about the council so long as their bins get collected.
2 - It's the second smallest council in the country, and generates some savings from that
3 - Although there are a lot of poorer areas in K&C, there are still a lot of Band H properties compared to other areas. With a relatively higher number of properties paying the max tax band, overall tax rates can be lower.

Wandsworth is a special case - they were a test case for Thatcher and got their debt written off to see how far they could reduce taxes.
Edit: Monkey said it just as well.

 

[PTK]

A random example, that I posted earlier.
Seaford, Sussex.

Band D in Seaford is £2,468.38
With 25% discount = £1851.285

Band B in Seaford is £1,919.85.

So, you would still pay more Council Tax in Seaford if you moved from a Band D dwelling to a Band B dwelling.



All council tax bands are calculated to be the same proportion of Band D. Therefore, I think the above calculation would be applicable generally.

 

[Chz]

A random example, that I posted earlier.
Seaford, Sussex.

Band D in Seaford is £2,468.38
With 25% discount = £1851.285

Band B in Seaford is £1,919.85.

So, you would still pay more Council Tax in Seaford if you moved from a Band D dwelling to a Band B dwelling.



All council tax bands are calculated to be the same proportion of Band D. Therefore, I think the above calculation would be applicable generally.

I did say not quite but close enough. Someone who can't afford the £6/mo is going to be on reduced rate anyhow.
Edit: Let me make that should be. We all know how great they are at that.

 

[InArduisFouette]

Are they, though?

when the Winter fuel payment was blindly paid solely becasue someone was of state pension age , yes they were

 

[Silas Loom]

In theory means testing is progressive. In practise it's anything but progressive given how it's usually applied by
UK Governments. It also costs more due the level of administration needed to make decisions. If there is an
ability to appeal against a decision then that adds further costs.

This illustrates just how much money the DWP has spent on defending its benefit decisions.

How Tory government blows millions in taxpayer cash fighting benefit claims

The DWP has spent hundreds of millions on fighting disability benefits claimants appealing a PIP, universal credit, DLA and ESA decision.

www.bigissue.com

But presumably no-one thinks that PIP or DLA should be universal benefits, there will always be administration costs and appeal procedures for any benefit linked to circumstances. Even if assessment was done more sensibly and cheaply, with GP statements taken at face value.

 

[PTK]

I did say not quite but close enough. Someone who can't afford the £6/mo is going to be on reduced rate anyhow.

I was pointing out how, if the 25% discount was abolished, then moving from Band D to Band B would still mean that you paid more than you do now.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

when the Winter fuel payment was blindly paid solely becasue someone was of state pension age , yes they were

If you don't think the rich are paying enough into the pot, make them pay more. Pensions are taxable income, so rich pensioners are paying tax. Make them pay more if you think there is an unfairness in the system.

Introducing more means-testing only increases inequality. That will be the net effect of this govt's policies, just as it was the net effect of the Blair govt's policies.

 

[InArduisFouette]

yehbut all the ultra-rich council tenants won't even feel that

Social Housing Rents are somewhat academic for Housing Benefit recipients, and some of the "legacy" social housing tenants seem to be remarkably 'well off' for their income , prehaps in part to the their rent being at the level it is at

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Social Housing Rents are somewhat academic for Housing Benefit recipients, and some of the "legacy" social housing tenants seem to be remarkably 'well off' for their income , prehaps in part to the their rent being at the level it is at

fucksake you're now having a pop at council tenants? Private tenants are ripped off. That's the story here. Get it right.

 

[InArduisFouette]

A two bedroom flat is what a single person might trade down to as an alternative to a four bedroom house that would be ideal for large families.

Nobody should be penalised for living alone, but I don’t see why there should be incentives for doing so when there is an acute housing shortage.

that is not necessarily the situation where 'trading down' is the push especially if you are paying your own rent , however single people occupying 3 and 4 bed Social housing properties due to family changes often over decades , where these houses are sorely needed by those in acute housing need is a different matter, alternatively pay market rent for them

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"market rent"

You do know what that is, don't you? It's extortion carried out by those who own against those who don't own.

 

[xenon]

I was pointing out how, if the 25% discount was abolished, then moving from Band D to Band B would still mean that you paid more than you do now.

See my edit prev page.I actually misheard D as B.

 

[InArduisFouette]

I live alone in a studio flat. If I 'trade down', I will be living in a bench in the park. Might as well jump from a bridge to release the bench space.

oh do grow up ...
making light of suicide is not a good look

 

[PTK]

Then there is the increase in rents for Council and Housing Association tenants above the rate of inflation.
The Conservative government brought that in, and Reeves recenly guaranteed that these rents will rise above the rate of inflation for the next ten years. Hooray!

 

[The39thStep]

Social Housing Rents are somewhat academic for Housing Benefit recipients, and some of the "legacy" social housing tenants seem to be remarkably 'well off' for their income , prehaps in part to the their rent being at the level it is at

Social housing was never intended to be only for the poor or less well off or indeed some form of entertainment for nosey 'poverty spotters' On our estate we had all sorts of people manual workers , white collar workers ,skilled tradespeople , teachers, self employed a right old mix.

 

[PTK]

oh do grow up ...
making light of suicide is not a good look

The prospect of cuts in the living standards of people is certainly not good for their mental well-being.

 

[two sheds]

Social housing was never intended to be only for the poor or less well off or indeed some form of entertainment for nosey 'poverty spotters' On our estate we had all sorts of people manual workers , white collar workers ,skilled tradespeople , teachers, self employed a right old mix.

That is the best argument I've heard for not restricting on income, sounds like a really healthy type of community.

 

[PTK]

That is the best argument I've heard for not restricting on income, sounds like a really healthy type of community.

The post-1945 New Towns, such as Basildon, Harlow, and Stevenage, had "Standard 2" social housing for people such as scientists, teachers, and other professionals, which were on the same estates as the housing for other workers, the idea being social integration. Not all estates contained Standard 2 houses, and some estates were physically worse than others.

 

[two sheds]

Is the way to set different sets of people against each other though - restrict access to something we all need, and make houses hugely overvalued and hard to get. When actually many landlords are making large profits from government and private renters. And while there are homeless people and people needing somewhere to live there are also loads of houses empty for large parts or all of the year.

 

[PTK]

Is the way to set different sets of people against each other though - restrict access to something we all need, and make houses hugely overvalued and hard to get. When actually many landlords are making large profits from government and private renters. And while there are loads of houses empty for large parts or all of the year.

It amuses me that the sell-off of council houses, and the rise in prices of housing, has led to "professional" people buying ex-council houses of a type that people from their social milieu would once have sneered at.

 

[teqniq]

Social housing was never intended to be only for the poor or less well off or indeed some form of entertainment for nosey 'poverty spotters' On our estate we had all sorts of people manual workers , white collar workers ,skilled tradespeople , teachers, self employed a right old mix.

That is similar to the flats where I live, there's a real cross-section of ppl living here. The only unfortunate thing for some of them is they are letting flats off off landlords who have bought the lease for their flat from the HA under right to buy and are paying a great deal more rent than if they were renting from the HA.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Not a big issue to tax dividends, that won't get the truly wealthy and anyone seeing that coming will simply move their stock to a non dividend paying portfolio. Tax debt over a certain threshold would really hit the rich hard. The problem as usual is if only we do it that debt is reconstructed elsewhere (assuming it was ever here in the first place).

With taxing wealth you really have to work out exactly how wealthy is wealthy.

Yes. Because while someone who's technically a millionaire - if you work out wealth by including the value of assets such as property - might seem wealthy to most people, it's probably not that hard to be a millionaire in London/South East. Even someone who doesn't consider themselves particularly well-off could have bought property relatively cheaply in many parts of London three or four decades ago and now with appreciation in property prices they're technically rich.

Heck, even I'm wealthy on paper, if you take property value into consideration, as my flat's worth £200k+, even though I'm fairly skint in cash terms.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I never thought I'd see the day that a Labour government would pick on poor, vulnerable people.

I don't think they'll ever be forgiven for this.

Yeah, Thatcher the milk snatcher was never forgiven (by many) for taking school milk off children. Who knew that a Labour government was going to implement a viciously mean, potentially fatal, policy aimed at poor vulnerable people at the other end of the age spectrum.

 

[Chz]

Yeah, Thatcher the milk snatcher was never forgiven (by many) for taking school milk off children. Who knew that a Labour government was going to implement a viciously mean, potentially fatal, policy aimed at poor vulnerable people at the other end of the age spectrum.

I didn't know, but I'm hardly surprised.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I live in a 2 bed HA flat....when this block of flats was built it was privately owned and for sale.......at some point it was taken over by a HA and the council but my flat is band D and without the 25% single person discount i would be seriously fucked, i work 45 hours a week on just above minimum wage and even though the rent is nothing like private rent things are very tight.......i know people in quite large houses with gardens that pay the same or less council tax than i do...after spending a life of frequently moving house and living here for 8 and a half years this is now my home, yes i have a spare bedroom (my youngest son lived here when i first moved here here) but i no longer have the resources to move even if i wanted to.

Btw, lots of people assume that they might not be entitled to any benefits if they're working full-time, but millions go unclaimed every year.

Check with an independent welfare rights advisor from somewhere like Citizens Advice or a law centre if you're entitled to any help.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

I first looked up Band H charge in Kensington and Chelsea after the Grenfell Fire, and I was shocked that people in those houses pay lower council tax than people in Band H in somewhere like Basildon.

Yes, didn't Conservative-led local authorities used to pride themselves on low council taxes? (Probably helped by higher levels of funding from central government, which made it look like they were more fiscally responsible than Labour-led local authorities.)

 

[Chz]

Btw, lots of people assume that they might not be entitled to any benefits if they're working full-time, but millions go unclaimed every year.

Check with an independent welfare rights advisor from somewhere like Citizens Advice or a law centre if you're entitled to any help.

Absolutely, I checked as a part of this whole discussion and someone on minimum wage, 40 hours a week is entitled to a CT reduction well in excess of the single discount. It was more like 35%. You can possibly still qualify earning well over the minimum for something at least.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Social housing was never intended to be only for the poor or less well off or indeed some form of entertainment for nosey 'poverty spotters' On our estate we had all sorts of people manual workers , white collar workers ,skilled tradespeople , teachers, self employed a right old mix.

It was intended to be somewhere people were very pleased to move to. And initially it very much was.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

But presumably no-one thinks that PIP or DLA should be universal benefits, there will always be administration costs and appeal procedures for any benefit linked to circumstances. Even if assessment was done more sensibly and cheaply, with GP statements taken at face value.

To be clear: PIP and DLA aren't means-tested benefits. They are available to all disabled people (who meet the criteria) irrespective of how wealthy they are, because the funds are intended to cover the additional costs of being disabled. So they're sort of universal in the sense they're for disabled people who are assessed to be sufficiently disabled in terms of their disability having an adverse impact on their daily living - irrespective of how much savings/assets they have.