Urban75 Home About Offline BrixtonBuzz Contact

New Labour government - legislative agenda

Why not tax wealth instead? Land taxes, capital gains, dividend income. All up for grabs on October 30.
Not a big issue to tax dividends, that won't get the truly wealthy and anyone seeing that coming will simply move their stock to a non dividend paying portfolio. Tax debt over a certain threshold would really hit the rich hard. The problem as usual is if only we do it that debt is reconstructed elsewhere (assuming it was ever here in the first place).

With taxing wealth you really have to work out exactly how wealthy is wealthy.
 
Not a big issue to tax dividends, that won't get the truly wealthy and anyone seeing that coming will simply move their stock to a non dividend paying portfolio. Tax debt over a certain threshold would really hit the rich hard. The problem as usual is if only we do it that debt is reconstructed elsewhere (assuming it was ever here in the first place).

With taxing wealth you really have to work out exactly how wealthy is wealthy.

I was thinking of business owners rather than savings portfolios, so to be fair that’s really a targeted income tax rather than a wealth tax. Taxing debt sounds interesting, has that been floated?
 
Whether the high earner pays more or less depends on what numbers you plug in.

Also, this assumes that taxes are reduced in line with the savings from means testing which is not what's being done here. If means testing is introduced and tax on the high earner is not changed, they are still paying £3000 and you are not giving them £1000 back. Of the £3000 they are paying, only £1000 is needed to fund the scheme so you have £2000 to fund something else as well.
It's an illustration of what progressive taxation actually means. It doesn't depend on the particular numbers you plug in. It depends on the way that the taxation is proportionate to wealth. Hence it is generalisable.

That they aren't reducing taxes with this saving is irrelevant. The point is that they say they have an issue with the finances. Changing tax rates in a progressive way is an alternative way to fix that issue that they have chosen not to do, chosing instead to do this.
 
Last edited:
HMRC report people's PAYE earnings to DWP in sort of real-time in order for DWP to eg calculate Universal Credit payments, which fluctuate depending on earnings.

I suppose a big unknown quantity is unearned income in the sense of non-job earnings, like interest on savings, dividends from stock holdings, freelance/self-employed income, which are reliant on people reporting them retrospectively in their income tax filings.
There are people on the State Pension who do not qualify for Pension Credit, but qualify for Housing Beneift and/or Coucil Tax Support. I think that these people will still receive the Winter Fuel Allowance.
It seems to me that the pensions of those who qualify for pension credit could simply be automatically increased to the level of the state pension, without them having to claim.
 
It's an illustration of what progressive taxation actually means. It doesn't depend on the particular numbers you plug in. It depends on the way that the taxation is proportionate to wealth. Hence it is generalisable.

That they aren't reducing taxes with this saving is irrelevant. The point is that they say they have an issue with the finances. Changing tax rates in a progressive way is an alternative way to fix that issue that they have chosen not to do, chosing instead to do this.
That's the thing about UK governments - they hate raising the headline income tax rate. Except income tax is progressive, and the stealth taxes (or cuts) that they introduce to cover not altering them are almost always regressive.
 
Band A houses are usually pretty small, so this just a reprise of the argument that has been trotted out several times on this thread about studios and two bedroom flats. Since it’s you, though, I’ll assume it’s being deployed in good faith.

I am not suggesting that anyone in Band A downsizes. Why would I?

The heftiest council tax bills, where 25% discounts make the greatest difference, apply only to the largest houses - which it could be argued should really be occupied by families, given the general shortage of housing. In these cases, of course, equity easily funds the moving costs and stamp duties.

Single people - especially the widowed elderly - have a perfect right to occupy very large houses that they feel comfortable in, but it’s reasonable to question property tax incentives for this choice.
I live in a 2 bed HA flat....when this block of flats was built it was privately owned and for sale.......at some point it was taken over by a HA and the council but my flat is band D and without the 25% single person discount i would be seriously fucked, i work 45 hours a week on just above minimum wage and even though the rent is nothing like private rent things are very tight.......i know people in quite large houses with gardens that pay the same or less council tax than i do...after spending a life of frequently moving house and living here for 8 and a half years this is now my home, yes i have a spare bedroom (my youngest son lived here when i first moved here here) but i no longer have the resources to move even if i wanted to.
 
I live in a 2 bed HA flat....when this block of flats was built it was privately owned and for sale.......at some point it was taken over by a HA and the council but my flat is band D and without the 25% single person discount i would be seriously fucked, i work 45 hours a week on just above minimum wage and even though the rent is nothing like private rent things are very tight.......i know people in quite large houses with gardens that pay the same or less council tax than i do...after spending a life of frequently moving house and living here for 8 and a half years this is now my home, yes i have a spare bedroom (my youngest son lived here when i first moved here here) but i no longer have the resources to move even if i wanted to.
Also, if the 25% cut was introduced, and you moved to a Band C or a Band B dwelling, your council tax liability would probably be no less.
 
Band A houses are usually pretty small, so this just a reprise of the argument that has been trotted out several times on this thread about studios and two bedroom flats. Since it’s you, though, I’ll assume it’s being deployed in good faith.

I am not suggesting that anyone in Band A downsizes. Why would I?

The heftiest council tax bills, where 25% discounts make the greatest difference, apply only to the largest houses - which it could be argued should really be occupied by families, given the general shortage of housing. In these cases, of course, equity easily funds the moving costs and stamp duties.

Single people - especially the widowed elderly - have a perfect right to occupy very large houses that they feel comfortable in, but it’s reasonable to question property tax incentives for this choice.
It doesn't occur to you that many people in the houses you think they should leave will face hurdles finding suitable accommodation because there's not an infinite supply of it and many blocks of flats will not have accessibility features they require: not to mention moving will often exclude people from the community and networks of support they formerly enjoyed

Also your bit about good faith is a sure sign of the smug rws
 
I live in a 2 bed HA flat....when this block of flats was built it was privately owned and for sale.......at some point it was taken over by a HA and the council but my flat is band D and without the 25% single person discount i would be seriously fucked, i work 45 hours a week on just above minimum wage and even though the rent is nothing like private rent things are very tight.......i know people in quite large houses with gardens that pay the same or less council tax than i do...after spending a life of frequently moving house and living here for 8 and a half years this is now my home, yes i have a spare bedroom (my youngest son lived here when i first moved here here) but i no longer have the resources to move even if i wanted to.
Apply for a re-calculation. My 3 bed HA flat was moved from D to C. It's usually a very simple thing to apply for on the council's web site.
Depending on the council in question, it can also be fairly simple and unintrusive to apply for a CT discount based on need (this can vary from 0-100%).
But even moving from D to C is half the value of the discount.
 
My eldest son and family live with my daughter-in-laws parents....the house is in a nice area, large corner plot with double driveway, big front garden area, big back garden, detached with four beds,an annex and double width garage....they are in the same council tax band as me.
 
My eldest son and family live with my daughter-in-laws parents....the house is in a nice area, large corner plot with double driveway, big front garden area, big back garden, detached with four beds,an annex and double width garage....they are in the same council tax band as me.
Where exactly though? A nice area in Bury St. Edmonds with a house like that is worth the same as a 1 bed in Islington. And taxed accordingly.
 
Where exactly though? A nice area in Bury St. Edmonds with a house like that is worth the same as a 1 bed in Islington. And taxed accordingly.

But was it in 1993? The Islington premium over BStE must have increased substantially since then.
 
It doesn't occur to you that many people in the houses you think they should leave will face hurdles finding suitable accommodation because there's not an infinite supply of it and many blocks of flats will not have accessibility features they require: not to mention moving will often exclude people from the community and networks of support they formerly enjoyed

Also your bit about good faith is a sure sign of the smug rws
rws?
 
But was it in 1993? The Islington premium over BStE must have increased substantially since then.
Islington (or at least around the Angel) was early to the game, which is why I picked that and not Hackney. The Blairs were already living there in 1993 and their place cost £375k in 1993 money.

Relative to that, BSE has probably caught up a bit.
 
Islington (or at least around the Angel) was early to the game, which is why I picked that and not Hackney. The Blairs were already living there in 1993 and their place cost £375k in 1993 money.

Relative to that, BSE has probably caught up a bit.

It’s quite feasible that valuations will still be based on 1993 when we are in the 2100s. Every government is terrified to touch it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chz
Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, 2024/25 Band H: £3,017.96
Basildon, Essex 2024/25 Band H: £4,341.42
 
Actually, the bands are relative to the area, not to the country as a whole. Houses in the top band in Kensington and Chelsea pay a lower Council Tax than houses in top bands in some places outside London.
I was thinking of the actual bands, more than what they cost. There are a lot more houses in Band H in Kensington and Chelsea. mentalchik was saying they're in the same town, so quite probably it's the same band for the same CT.

ETA: Actual CT payments are all over the fucking place and it's not really possible to compare the monetary value between different councils. All you can do is compare bands.
 
I was thinking of the actual bands, more than what they cost. There are a lot more houses in Band H in Kensington and Chelsea. mentalchik was saying they're in the same town, so quite probably it's the same band for the same CT.

But there are a lot of posh houses in Kensington and Chelsea, relative to the lower banded ones which will probably be flats on the Worlds End Estate and a few similar places. The point that it's relative locally is still right though. Revaluing will make a lot less difference than some people seem to think because of that - there will be some oddities that have crept in over the years but to a large degree the posher areas are still the same as they were 30 years ago.
 
But there are a lot of posh houses in Kensington and Chelsea, relative to the lower banded ones which will probably be flats on the Worlds End Estate and a few similar places. The point that it's relative locally is still right though. Revaluing will make a lot less difference than some people seem to think because of that - there will be some oddities that have crept in over the years but to a large degree the posher areas are still the same as they were 30 years ago.
I would think that most homes wouldn't move, but I'd also expect the changes to be a lot more than you're suggesting. Remember that the values for the tax bands are set for England as a whole, and a great many areas have changed their value relative to the whole of England in the past 30 years.

I think we've moved full circle to "It's a really shit tax, isn't it?" :)
 
Also, if the 25% cut was introduced, and you moved to a Band C or a Band B dwelling, your council tax liability would probably be no less.

It would be more. A is the lowest band, usually the smallest properties.

AH sorry PTK, I actually misheard / misread, D as B in the post you were replying to. Not least as I'm in a 2 bed flat which is band B.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: PTK
It would be more. A is the lowest band, usually the smallest properties.
D to B would be roughly the value of the discount on a D (though not quite). Obviously this changes wildly by area, but that's based on the average rates for England.
 
I first looked up Band H charge in Kensington and Chelsea after the Grenfell Fire, and I was shocked that people in those houses pay lower council tax than people in Band H in somewhere like Basildon.
 
BIB - how on earth can you say that means-testing isn’t progressive? It’s the very definition of progressive, in the narrow economic sense which contrasts with regressive or proportional taxation and distribution.

In theory means testing is progressive. In practise it's anything but progressive given how it's usually applied by
UK Governments. It also costs more due the level of administration needed to make decisions. If there is an
ability to appeal against a decision then that adds further costs.

This illustrates just how much money the DWP has spent on defending its benefit decisions.
 
Back
Top Bottom