Muslims and the European media

[foggypane]

Whilst Mears has a point about the need to respect embassies (as well as everyone else, but hey, this is international politics), I think that to get too tough would be a mistake.

It's entirely plain that this whole mess is not spontaneous. Yet the old question 'who benefits?' has no clear answers and therefore I'd hesitate to get enthusiastic about robust action by the West too soon.

That comes from both a desire not to see the inevitable loss of innocent lives by tomahawk or whatever, and an uneasy feeling that someone is being suckered here. Us? Moderate ME people? Extremist ME people? The EU? The US?

Buggered if I know. Someone's playing games though and I wouldn't like to send people off to kill and die until it's crystal clear in the mind of those sending them, both why they are doing it and what will be the consequences.

It's too easy for governments to play to the gallery or to hidden/distorted interests. We've seen it with Iraq, I'd hate to see it again.

 

[mears]

Whilst Mears has a point about the need to respect embassies (as well as everyone else, but hey, this is international politics), I think that to get too tough would be a mistake.

It's entirely plain that this whole mess is not spontaneous. Yet the old question 'who benefits?' has no clear answers and therefore I'd hesitate to get enthusiastic about robust action by the West too soon.

That comes from both a desire not to see the inevitable loss of innocent lives by tomahawk or whatever, and an uneasy feeling that someone is being suckered here. Us? Moderate ME people? Extremist ME people? The EU? The US?

Buggered if I know. Someone's playing games though and I wouldn't like to send people off to kill and die until it's crystal clear in the mind of those sending them, both why they are doing it and what will be the consequences.

It's too easy for governments to play to the gallery or to hidden/distorted interests. We've seen it with Iraq, I'd hate to see it again.

Hopefully this nonsense will die down and nothing else be destroyed. Since Syria was humiliated with their retreat from Lebanon, they could be the culprits in Lebanon.

And I'm sure if the protestors were going after Assad's presidential compund the security services in Damascus would have been a tad more robust in their responce.

Spontaneous demonstrations rarely just happen in a police state.

 

[foggypane]

True. I have to admit I nearly spilled me beer when I heard the news - I misheard 'Beirut' as 'Belfast'.

Rampaging religious mobs in Belfast? Toooooooo crazy. Lucky it was a mishear.

 

[TAE]

Christian symbols in Lebanon attacked as well.

The whole episode is certainly not doing the image of islam any favours.



But things are never as bad as some would like to paint them:

In one unusual twist, Mahmoud Zahar, a top Hamas leader, visited a Gaza church Thursday and promised protection to Christians, after Fatah gunmen threatened to target churches as part of their protests. Zahar offered the local priest the protect of gunmen from Hamas' military wing, the Izzedine al Qassam Brigades.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/7713.htm

 

[mears]

The whole episode is certainly not doing the image of islam any favours.



But things are never as bad as some would like to paint them:

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/7713.htm

That is a very good gesture from Hamas

 

[oi2002]

True. I have to admit I nearly spilled me beer when I heard the news - I misheard 'Beirut' as 'Belfast'.

Rampaging religious mobs in Belfast? Toooooooo crazy. Lucky it was a mishear.

Yes that would be odd, the marching season is not yet apon us.

 

[foggypane]

Do they do package tours from Belfast to Damascus? In them big orange planes?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

We're wearing you down, foggy. Better be careful.

As for me, I'm heading out. It's Friday evening and I've got nothing to drink in the house, so it's down to the local for some nice fresh Sierra Nevada Pale Ale on draft (the pride of Chico, California), and then later perhaps a taste of my favorite tipple, Knob Creek straight bourbon whiskey from Kentucky. I asked for Danish beer at my bar a couple of days ago, but they didn't stock any, though maybe I'll get some Danish baby back ribs for the barbecue on Sunday. Go Seahawks!

I tried some kind of dark beer from Sierra Nevada, about a decade ago, while staying in Eureka. It was crap.

And the Seahawks are seriously blowing it right now.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No worries. Look, I'm about as conservative as they come on a lot of stuff (and libertarian on the rest) but we have here in the U.S some flat-out Nazis (literally) and racists that I'll have nothing to do with. What's odd though is that while it seems the European extreme right hates Muslims and Arabs and thus might gain from the present conflict, the extreme right here in the U.S. (think David Duke, etc. here) are so utterly anti-Jew that they've actually been at least pretending to embrace the Palestinian "cause"! It's almost funny, really. These same guys who just flat-out rip on Jews, blacks, and Asians (meaning Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) all of a sudden start acting like Bertrand Fuckin' Russell when it comes to the A-rabs! The result is that they look even more like liars and clowns. These types have absolutely no power or credibility or hope here. But that doesn't stop some (not you, foggy) from trying to paint the National Review-type Conservatives such as myself with the same brush. It is impossible to get a rise out of me like that. It is just too weak.

It's like the religious conservatives and feminists teaming up to fight porn.

"Ok girls, we beat porn: now get your asses back into the kitchen!"

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh my god, you like the Seahawks Jumping on the bandwagon?

I am a die hard Colts fan, grew up in Indianapolis. They go 13-0 and lose to fucking Pittsburg. Just terrible

The Seahawks qualify as a local team around here.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Oh my god, you like the Seahawks Jumping on the bandwagon?

I am a die hard Colts fan, grew up in Indianapolis. They go 13-0 and lose to fucking Pittsburg. Just terrible

Aren't the Colts the team that couldn't make it, and joined the CFL for awhile?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Anti-Semitism was never widespread in America, and now is barely a whiff. .

How old are you?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Maybe while the Danes are busy fighting Islam, we Canadians can finally successfully stake our claim to Hans Island.

 

[nino_savatte]

How old are you?

He's one of "yours" isn't he?

 

[nino_savatte]

I thought about that as well. Syrian intelligence is has apparently been very active in Lebanon, maybe assasinating prominent political figures. At least that is what some are charging.

Not a good sign if Syria was behind this in Lebanon.

Just imagine some scenarios that could come out of this. What if 50 Norwiegens for instance were taken hostage or trapped in an embassy? The outrage in Norway would be high. The prime minister under intense political pressure to do something calls on NATO to help extricate their people. Norway can't project their power alone in the region.

In other words here come the yanks and brits. You can't have people attacking embassies.

More propagandising from our favourite pop up toaster.

If you unpack this rhetoric, you will see that mears is up to his auld tricks, talking up war and conflict and wearing his xenophobia like a heart on his sleeve. Of course he cannot resist the temptation to finger Syria...it's amazing that he didn't manage to drag in Iran or Hamas as well.

 

[phildwyer]

Of course he cannot resist the temptation to finger Syria...

I sense an agenda from Nino here.

 

[nino_savatte]

I sense an agenda from Nino here.

Still spouting shite, dwyer?

 

[mears]

Aren't the Colts the team that couldn't make it, and joined the CFL for awhile?

No, they are team that always chokes in the big games...

 

[mears]

Some protests still going on around the world.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10705393/

I would imaginge they will die down as all these people return to their jobs monday morning

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

No, they are team that always chokes in the big games...

The following year saw three more American CFL teams as part of a plan that would see the CFL expand to 20 teams, ten in Canada and ten in the United States. The Baltimore CFL Colts, a name that tried to evoke the spirit of a National Football League team that had since moved to Indianapolis (and were forced to change their name to the Stallions after a long legal battle) were the most successful of any American CFL team, having finished second in the East and making it to the Grey Cup Finals (becoming the first American team to play for the Grey Cup).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_League

 

[hundredthmonkey]

Maybe similar threads were started but its seems as though countless threads are started on Iraq alone in BOTH the World Affairs and ME forum. If the moderators don't want another thread on this topic you can point me to another thread that deals with these questions; however, I can't seem to find it.

So why pretend the current Muslim protests in Eurpe are not happening? Its like that loud drunk uncle at the holidays everyone shuns.What about the issues of freedom of speech and religious tolerance? Should European media outlets continue to reprint these cartoons to make a statement about freedom of speech? Are Muslim groups in Europe justified in their anger, or is this an overeaction? What about jack Starw's comments that the decision of some newspapers to reprint the cartoons were "insensitive, disrespectful and wrong”? http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2024352,00.html

After a short perusal of the posts here which orient towards who is drinking what lager may I just say, leaving lager out of the business of whether it was a good thing to print those cartoons or not, I don't think that is the issue.

Do we need to reminded about the nasty cartoons that were circulating during the time of Nazis about Jews and how powerfully dehumanising those images look; when viewed through the lens of history they look so crude, just like this picture of Mohammed in an untasteful bomb/turban... never mind that Arabs do not wear turbans, you will have to go the Indian subcontinent to find turbans. What does the image say, all Muslims are terrorists?

While I am on the subject of bombs and particularly nuclear bombs, visit America to find a country with a president who has signalled his intention to drop nukular bombs (preemptively - the most heinous crime) on the A-rabs living in Tehran and he is not shy about saying that... where's the protest? Is this cartoon signalling what Bush and the West intend to do? Where's the reaction?

I hope my Arab brethren realise that neo-liberalism is the real enemy and do not fall for these silly diversions. We are brothers and sisters and the cartoon was provacative but childish... the paper had actually run a competition to find some images... morons. So a couple of Danish embassies have been burnt to the ground and some other reactionary types threaten to kill the infidel. The real issue is Bush is threatening to fry Iranians with nukes and this silly cartoon designed to show up Arabs up as violent reactionaries should be ignored - who was behind those protests? I am hearing strains of Daniel Pipes... Whoever it was has handed the reactionaries in the West a gift. And I would also like to remind those who might think this is something that is unique to Arabs, don't forget the hullaballoo that has followed films like the Last Temptation, Passion of Christ etc... Don't forget the Intelligent Design mob and the creationists.

Those of us who are secularists and who HAVE manners know that you do not antagonise the religious, no matter how silly you their views are because they DO take them seriously.

 

[mears]

The following year saw three more American CFL teams as part of a plan that would see the CFL expand to 20 teams, ten in Canada and ten in the United States. The Baltimore CFL Colts, a name that tried to evoke the spirit of a National Football League team that had since moved to Indianapolis (and were forced to change their name to the Stallions after a long legal battle) were the most successful of any American CFL team, having finished second in the East and making it to the Grey Cup Finals (becoming the first American team to play for the Grey Cup).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Football_League

Interesting, I stand corrected

 

[mears]

After a short perusal of the posts here which orient towards who is drinking what lager may I just say, leaving lager out of the business of whether it was a good thing to print those cartoons or not, I don't think that is the issue.

Do we need to reminded about the nasty cartoons that were circulating during the time of Nazis about Jews and how powerfully dehumanising those images look, when viewed through the lens of history they look so crude, just like this picture of Mohammed in an untasteful bomb/turban... never mind that Arabs do not wear turbans, you will have to go the Indian subcontinent for that. What does it say, all Muslims are terrorists?

While we are on the subject of bombs and particularly nuclear bombs, you would have to visit America to find a country with a president who has signalled his intention to drop nukular bombs on the A-rabs living in Tehran and he is not shy about saying that... where's the protest? Do I need to draw Bush with a nuke on his head to get some reaction?

I hope my Arab brethren realise that capitalism is the real enemy and do not fall for these silly diversions. We are brothers and sisters and the cartoon was provacative but childish... the paper had actually run a competition to find some images... morons. So a couple of Danish embassies have been burnt to the ground and some other reactionary types threaten to kill the infidel. The real issue is Bush is threatening to fry Iranians with nukes and this silly cartoon is designed to show the Arabs up as violent reactionaries - who was behind those protests? Whoever it was has handed the reactionaries in the West a gift. And I would also like to remind those who might have forgotten about the hullaballoo that has followed films like the Last Temptation, Passion of Christ etc...

Those of us who are secularists and who HAVE manners know that you do not antagonise the views of the religious, no matter how silly you think they are, because they DO take them seriously.

The real issue is not George Bush. Things do actually happen in the world beyond George Bush. Like the European media and their relationship with Muslims.

If capitalism is the enemy of Muslims, what economic system is their friend?

 

[hundredthmonkey]

The real issue is not George Bush. Things do actually happen in the world beyond George Bush. Like the European media and their relationship with Muslims.

If capitalism is the enemy of Muslims, what economic system is their friend?

Socialism! HA!

 

[mears]

Socialism! HA!

Socialism practiced in places like Scandanavia or command economy socialism in places like Cuba and Korea? The differences are night and day you know.

 

[hundredthmonkey]

I would hardly describe those states as Socialist would you? A socialist state would entail workers controlling the means of production but don't let me divert you from having a wank over Arabs getting upset over their prophet being displayed as a terrorist.

 

[hundredthmonkey]

Something to ponder...

“A favourable soil for wars are, nationalist prejudices, which are systematically cultivated in the civilised countries in the interests of the ruling classes, with the object of diverting the proletarian masses from their own class objectives and making them forget the duty of international class solidarity.

“Thus wars are rooted in the very essence of capitalism; they will end only when the capitalist system ceases to exist, or when the immensity of human and financial sacrifice caused by the development of military technique, and the indignation which armaments arouse in the people, lead to the elimination of the system.

“The working class, which is the principal supplier of soldiers, and which bears the brunt of the material sacrifices, is in particular the natural enemy of wars, because wars contradict the aim it pursues, namely, the creation of an economic system founded on socialist principles, which in practice will give effect to the solidarity of peoples....”

 

[mears]

I would hardly describe those states as Socialist would you? A socialist state would entail workers controlling the means of production but don't let me divert you from having a wank over Arabs getting upset over their prophet being displayed as a terrorist.

Yes, the North Korea or Cuban model. Successful economic policies indeed.

 

[hundredthmonkey]

Neither are socialist and your other example is Sweden which has never been socialist! How on earth do you reach this conclusion! Or do you peddle in myths like the worst bourgeois historians? Show me one country where the working class control the means of production and then we can talk of whether socialism works or not.

 

[rich!]

which reminds me a little of Jameson.

Jenna, yes?