Museum billed as celebration of London women opens as Jack the Ripper exhibit

[spitfire]

ok, in that case the other one is a no-mark lurker who has been about for years

rumbled

 

[Rob Ray]

What's your argument here Spymaster? That people shouldn't be annoyed at a physical place near them celebrating misogynist murders for profit because other people do it in ways which don't lend themselves to easy protest or outrage? I mean... sure consistency would be nice, but people and circumstance don't work that way.

 

[cesare]

So again, aren't the films and books etc., at the expense of women in the same way?

His misrepresentation is at the expense of women. Sure, the subject matter with films and productions is about the expense of women but the method isn't, necessarily. I'm saying that his methods of obtaining his commercial enterprise are misogynistic.

 

[Spymaster]

What's your argument here Spymaster?

No argument, first of all. This thread was running for most of yesterday and I reread bits of it last night. Several posters referred to the enterprise per se as misogynistic and sexist and I just didn't see why. I think it's valid to explore why others do.

That people shouldn't be annoyed at a physical place near them celebrating misogynist murders for profit because other people do it in ways which don't lend themselves to easy protest or outrage?

Of course not. People have every right to be pissed off about the way this has been done. I am. I can also see that folk could legitimately have issues with the subject matter being exploited at all, but that's been done left right and centre for over 100 years.

 

[Pickman's model]

No argument, first of all. This thread was running for most of yesterday and I reread bits of it last night. Several posters referred to the the enterprise per se as misogynistic and sexist and I just didn't see why. I think it's valid to explore why others do.



Of course not. People have every right to be pissed off about the way this has been done. I am. I can also see that folk could legitimately have issues with the subject matter being exploited at all, but that's been done left right and centre for over 100 years.

i think if you say i'm opening a museum to celebrate women in the east end and it ends up as a celebration of their brutal murder, it's fair to say it's sexist and misogynistick.

 

[MochaSoul]

If reducing East End women's lives to a biography of JTR doesn't constitute misogyny I don't know what does.

 

[Spymaster]

Sure, the subject matter with films and productions is about the expense of women but the method isn't, necessarily. I'm saying that his methods of obtaining his commercial enterprise are misogynistic.

If reducing East End women's lives to a biography of JTR doesn't constitute misogyny I don't know what does.

i think if you say i'm opening a museum to celebrate women in the east end and it ends up as a celebration of their brutal murder, it's fair to say it's sexist and misogynistick.

Yeah. Fair enough.

 

[cesare]

i think if you say i'm opening a museum to celebrate women in the east end and it ends up as a celebration of their brutal murder, it's fair to say it's sexist and misogynistick.

Exactly. If he said I'm opening a museum to celebrate the lives of cats and dogs in the East End and then opened a museum about JTR, people would be complaining about misrepresentation but not misogynistic misrepresentation.

 

[trabuquera]

To misquote an old music-hall (or radio?) joke, it's not the profiting off the murder of women, it's the lying I can't stand. That's what compounds this. Tacky exploitation of murders is not new or unique or in itself misogynistic (although there IS a debate to be had about why it's somehow more acceptable to tackily exploit sexualised murders of women, than it is to exploit genocide or child murder for instance. Would a museum of the Moors murderers be acceptable, ever? I'm guessing not. ) But to spin the line about reviving women's history, then decide JTR is "more interesting" and just change the whole,erm, "concept" after planning permission is granted, is out of order in almost every way. What if I applied for planning permission for an outside toilet, then built a commercial sauna? One of these things is not like the other...

 

[Pickman's model]

To misquote an old music-hall (or radio?) joke, it's not the profiting off the murder of women, it's the lying I can't stand. That's what compounds this. Tacky exploitation of murders is not new or unique or in itself misogynistic (although there IS a debate to be had about why it's somehow more acceptable to tackily exploit sexualised murders of women, than it is to exploit genocide or child murder for instance. Would a museum of the Moors murderers be acceptable, ever? I'm guessing not. ) But to spin the line about reviving women's history, then decide JTR is "more interesting" and just change the whole,erm, "concept" after planning permission is granted, is out of order in almost every way. What if I applied for planning permission for an outside toilet, then built a commercial sauna? One of these things is not like the other...

or an inside toilet...

 

[weepiper]

It's saying women are only interesting as victims.

 

[Pickman's model]

It's saying women are only interesting as victims.

as people acted upon, not as actors themselves

 

[cesare]

as people acted upon, not as actors themselves

Yes, this is not about women's agency, and his methods have further reinforced that.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He who has not torched a bus full of nuns cast the first stone that's what I always say.

Damn.

 

[Pickman's model]

Damn.

i haven't, there were a couple of empty seats at the back

 

[Wilf]

Oh, well I probably wouldn't be thinking of him as sexist if he hadn't used "the lives of East End women" to obtain planning permission for his commercial women-killer museum.

If he'd just asked for a Jack The Ripper museum I probably wouldn't be bothered too much.

That's it for me as well. It's using the language of diversity to make money (pretty much as he would do in his day job). It's almost a Chris Morris type thing, the ultimate absurdity - corporate equality speak used to justify making money out of the murder of women. Diversity speak as PR for the 'Women Killing Experience'.

 

[cesare]

That's it for me as well. It's using the language of diversity to make money (pretty much as he would do in his day job). It's almost a Chris Morris type thing, the ultimate absurdity - corporate equality speak used to justify making money out of the murder of women. Diversity speak as PR for the 'Women Killing Experience'.

That's stage 2: justification (yeah, sexist and "diversity-speak" twisting the facts). Stage 1 was not even mentioning JTR and lying about the purpose of the museum, but using women as the vehicle for that.

 

[DotCommunist]

To misquote an old music-hall (or radio?) joke, it's not the profiting off the murder of women, it's the lying I can't stand. That's what compounds this. Tacky exploitation of murders is not new or unique or in itself misogynistic (although there IS a debate to be had about why it's somehow more acceptable to tackily exploit sexualised murders of women, than it is to exploit genocide or child murder for instance. Would a museum of the Moors murderers be acceptable, ever? I'm guessing not. ) But to spin the line about reviving women's history, then decide JTR is "more interesting" and just change the whole,erm, "concept" after planning permission is granted, is out of order in almost every way. What if I applied for planning permission for an outside toilet, then built a commercial sauna? One of these things is not like the other...

Theres an ongoing debate around this in comic books world of all places- Women in Refrigerators . Its how disproportionatly female comic book characters, usually a wife or girlfriend of the hero will be graphically murdered. On one reading you could just say its cheap lazy writers looking for an easy way to up the drama ante, but theres more to it than that isn't there?

 

[spanglechick]

Theres an ongoing debate around this in comic books world of all places- Women in Refrigerators . Its how disproportionatly female comic book characters, usually a wife or girlfriend of the hero will be graphically murdered. On one reading you could just say its cheap lazy writers looking for an easy way to up the drama ante, but theres more to it than that isn't there?

This, by Doon Mackinchan, is worth a read. She argues an excellent point, and it has given me pause when I've watched crime drama over the year or so since I read it: http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...-porn-endemic-violence-assault-women-has-stop

Edit - I should summarize - she argues that the overwhelming proportion of female victims in drama contributes to a society where violence against women is endemic. Which sounds like a leap, but as I say, she argues it well.

 

[weepiper]

There is a petition, not sure if posted already

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petiti...&source=facebook-share-button&time=1438290648

 

[DotCommunist]

This, by Doon Mackinchan, is worth a read. She argues an excellent point, and it has given me pause when I've watched crime drama over the year or so since I read it: http://www.newstatesman.com/culture...-porn-endemic-violence-assault-women-has-stop

Edit - I should summarize - she argues that the overwhelming proportion of female victims in drama contributes to a society where violence against women is endemic. Which sounds like a leap, but as I say, she argues it well.

it is well argued- feeds into that idea that art is as much a conversation between society and the art (pueds corner moment here I'm afraid): So essentially you have an artist influenced by society that s/he grew up in in turn reproducing and feeding back and influencing others- dialectic?

 

[spanglechick]

it is well argued- feeds into that idea that art is as much a conversation between society and the art (pueds corner moment here I'm afraid): So essentially you have an artist influenced by society that s/he grew up in in turn reproducing and feeding back and influencing others- dialectic?

I think for most feminist thinkers, the basic premise isn't a massive leap (though for those who have MRA tendencies, or who just wish structural equality wasn't a thing and so won't acknowledge it, it's a big step)... but from the perspective of someone who has worked as an actor, who has written plays, who has directed... and who now teaches all that stuff to the next generation - it is a really massive challenge to 2500 years of western narrative art. (2500 patriarchal years, of course...) Because we want to tell dramtically impactful stories. we want to watch plays that have high stakes... and the result of that patriarchal heritage is that it just *is* more dramatic when a woman is the victim, particularly if she has been sexually attacked too. We need to begin to consciously reject those high-stakes because they cause problems... and anyway, it's cheap - opting for the easiest dramatically impactful narrative device.

 

[DotCommunist]

just wish structural equality wasn't a thing and so won't acknowledge it

I don't know if you have been following geeky stuff but there has been a huge amount of this in gaming and sci fi recently, even unto a bunch of sad cunts hijacking one of SF novels highest awards (the hugo) in order to rig the slate system. I'd not say they wish it wasn't, but rather that they utterly reject the analysis of their own place in the patriachal hierarchy etc.

and anyway, it's cheap - opting for the easiest dramatically impactful narrative device.

the murder of a child or a woman, especially if sexual things are involved is indeed powerful- and yet its not always cheap and lazy. I'm thinking specifically here of China Meivilles 'The city & the City'. It opens with a murder copper trying to solve the case of a dead young woman and opens up into so much more. I think the comic book readers distaste at the trope I mentioned above is because of how throwaway it is. By all means tell a tale of a murdered woman and how the killers are brought to justice etc. But to just kill off a female character in order to give the hero something to frown about? Now thats cheap

 

[spanglechick]

I don't know if you have been following geeky stuff but there has been a huge amount of this in gaming and sci fi recently, even unto a bunch of sad cunts hijacking one of SF novels highest awards (the hugo) in order to rig the slate system. I'd not say they wish it wasn't, but rather that they utterly reject the analysis of their own place in the patriachal hierarchy etc.


the murder of a child or a woman, especially if sexual things are involved is indeed powerful- and yet its not always cheap and lazy. I'm thinking specifically here of China Meivilles 'The city & the City'. It opens with a murder copper trying to solve the case of a dead young woman and opens up into so much more. I think the comic book readers distaste at the trope I mentioned above is because of how throwaway it is. By all means tell a tale of a murdered woman and how the killers are brought to justice etc. But to just kill off a female character in order to give the hero something to frown about? Now thats cheap

Ok - but if Melville had made a choice not to tell that specific story, a writer of his skill could clearly have written something equally powerful, without contributing to the tidal wave of stories that involve violence against women.

 

[DotCommunist]

Ok - but if Melville had made a choice not to tell that specific story, a writer of his skill could clearly have written something equally powerful, without contributing to the tidal wave of stories that involve violence against women.

oh yeah, can and has- why it occured to me specifically in the context of what we have been discussing is that in using the death (murder, left in the park for the local teens to find, grim) of a young woman as a framing device. Well it didn't feel cheap done then. And Borlu (the detective) was relentless, the unfolding made it of value and Borlu's obsession with finding who and why. It could have been a young man couldn't it? Narratively it would have worked exactly the same. But the death of those percieved as weaker makes more impact I suppose. Precisely because it riles up the reader/viewers sense of injustice- gah, breakthrough, I've just realised thats exactly ehy its done and why it so easy to do- its done for the reasons I mentioned and its easy to do because it isn't unconvincing given the amount of women killed in sx crimes or similar.

yuk

 

[spanglechick]

oh yeah, can and has- why it occured to me specifically in the context of what we have been discussing is that in using the death (murder, left in the park for the local teens to find, grim) of a young woman as a framing device. Well it didn't feel cheap done then. And Borlu (the detective) was relentless, the unfolding made it of value and Borlu's obsession with finding who and why. It could have been a young man couldn't it? Narratively it would have worked exactly the same. But the death of those percieved as weaker makes more impact I suppose. Precisely because it riles up the reader/viewers sense of injustice- gah, breakthrough, I've just realised thats exactly ehy its done and why it so easy to do- its done for the reasons I mentioned and its easy to do because it isn't unconvincing given the amount of women killed in sx crimes or similar.

yuk

you say "easy" I say "cheap" - potato/potarto

 

[Lurdan]

I don't get why he did that. Would he not have got planning for a JTR museum if he'd been straight about it?

We'll see how this turns out but it's very possibly an example of shooting yourself in the foot by being too clever.

A straightforward application for change of use based on what was actually intended would have run into some opposition. Not just from locals offended by the exploitation of these women's murders, or sick of 'ripper experts' blocking the pavements with 'tours'. Some adjacent property owners would be concerned about their inflated property values. (On the other hand the owners of 'Poppies Diner' or, if they are still there, the dodgy looking geezers running the car hire firm across the road, might welcome the additional trade). The Council has cast a cold eye on Ripper themed attractions in the past for a variety of reasons. However it's very unlikely that the opposition would be at anything like the levels these fools have aroused.

Planners don't have the power to block this kind of development because of what it is. It's located within the 'Wilton's Music Hall Conservation Area' (pdf file) approved in 2008 but that will only affect what they can do to the exterior or how high they can build. But planners, (along with building inspectors) do have the power to delay approval while appropriate questions are asked and answered, and while that doesn't hold up big developers it can have a significant effect on the bottom line for small scale exploiters like these arses.

Having been caught out telling a pack of lies in the planning application reopens the issue of the truthfulness of everything else stated in the application. For example, this is a small building. Building and fire regulations clearly come into play in a different way for this kind of attraction than if it was a shop with small business offices above it. If their permissions depend on small pre-booked parties being given an escorted tour, rather than people wandering about at will, it restricts their earning potential if that is monitored for compliance. The same with any building regulation or fire safety requirements .

I haven't had a chance to look through the planning applications in detail - I intend to have a look at them over the weekend - but I'm still interested in the view of the staircase shown in the BBC news report. I posted this picture yesterday but here's an enhanced version. It raises questions in my mind about fire access.

If these cocks were hoping to slip under the radar and then do exactly what they want (as an enormous number of small property investors do) they've already seriously miscalculated. I doubt this level of potential scrutiny was part of the business plan.

 

[DotCommunist]

you say "easy" I say "cheap" - potato/potarto

'cheap dramatic devices' now theres a thread in that. Extra points for ones that do nothing to advance the plot but are simply used to justify the actions of others in the cast. At least when American Horror Story does that sort of thing its winking at you and asking you to guess which horror film they raided the trope from.

 

[toggle]

I haven't had a chance to look through the planning applications in detail - I intend to have a look at them over the weekend - but I'm still interested in the view of the staircase shown in the BBC news report. I posted this picture yesterday but here's an enhanced version. It raises questions in my mind about fire access.

If these cocks were hoping to slip under the radar and then do exactly what they want (as an enormous number of small property investors do) they've already seriously miscalculated. I doubt this level of potential scrutiny was part of the business plan.

that's what, under 2 foot wide?

and is that just bad paintwork or has the cunt actually done 'artistic' blood splatter on the fucking walls?

 

[Lurdan]

that's what, under 2 foot wide?

and is that just bad paintwork or has the cunt actually done 'artistic' blood splatter on the fucking walls?

The width is what struck me. The building doesn't seem wide enough to accommodate two staircases - perhaps they've put a down staircase at the back of it. I do wonder where the camera is located.

Don't know about the colour scheme - it's possible it's not yet completely painted. I did wonder if it was some kind of Caligari style 'expressionist' design. As I indicated I boosted the contrast and brightness on this version to make it clearer so it's not a faithful representation.