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wobbly
Didn't I say something about that just a few minutes ago? or is there just an echo in the room?
Museum billed as celebration of London women opens as Jack the Ripper exhibit
- Thread starter Belushi
- Start date
Didn't I say something about that just a few minutes ago? or is there just an echo in the room?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
perhaps he thinks you need it repeated back to you by an oxford-educated man to give it substance.
Shut up Pickers ffs.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
more research degrees than you can shake a stick at and still can't keep a civil tongue in his mouth.
You weren't class-specific about it. The thing about the Victorians was that attitudes and behaviors were so particular to social class that it's completely impossible to generalize about them. It's hard to imagine these people inhabiting the same world, let alone the same city.
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wobbly
Oh, i thought i was speaking to someone who had enough comprehension of the era that they would comprehend that what was presented as Victorian public life by the Victorian press (and hence what is today believed to represent all Victorian public life) would be the ideals and morality of Victorian middle class publishers. Next time I discuss this with you, I shall have to speak slowly and carefully and spell out all the intervening steps with extreme care, in one post (because I did mention the specifics if you could bother to read what I have discussed above) so that you can properly understand all that i know and therefore don't need to make a complete and utter fucking twat of yourself.
or perhaps i missed something in your previous discussions and your specialty is also related to Victorian class and gender politics.....
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Please fuck off this thread. It doesn't need you mansplaining all over it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
being as your speciality is more the early modern period you're not really equipped to bandy words with toggle about this.
Lurdan
old wave
Don't disagree with that at all. But prostitution of any kind wasn't the only form of economic activity or means of survival open to poor women, any more than were begging, theft or the workhouse. Within appallingly constrained circumstances even the poorest people have a small degree of agency and how they exercise it is important to them.
There's a reasonable argument that he may have been specifically targeting prostitutes, but there's an equally reasonable argument that he was targeting accessible women and that prostitutes fitted the bill. As you say whether Eddowes was a prostitute, or was taken as one, or was simply accessible isn't the important issue. She was the victim of an exceptionally brutal murder. But she wasn't simply a ripper victim she was a human being. What she was and did and wanted may not have been important to her killer but it was important to her, and should be as important to us as the manner in which she died. (I'm not trying to suggest that you're saying anything other than that - simply trying to be clear about what I'm saying).
My objection to taking reasonable assumptions and reasonable arguments as anything more than that is because of the nauseating moralism and misogynist bullshit that is smeared over every aspect of how these murders are represented. I hope I don't look as if I'm trying to disagree with you about that, or to distance it with some kind of dispassionate 'masculine' focus on 'accuracy'.
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wobbly
absolutely. and i welcome this kind of critical discussion of these issues.
and there is a place for both the position you have taken and for mine in an attack on the ripper mythology
and on victorian prostitution - assume you've read walkowitz, if not, highly recomended? I'm trying to find if friend at plymouth has published his own research but it appears - not yet. had some long beer fueled discussions on poverty, politics, prostitution with him. don't half get some funny looks discussing the history of prostitution in the pubs there though.
It's not "believed today to represent all Victorian public life." There's been plenty of research into the attitudes and practices of other social classes.
Don't be silly.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Fuck off, Dwyer and take your patronising sexist attitude with you.
No, you stop disrupting this thread with your petty personal attacks. Some of us want to have a decent discussion here.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
what, you think it does need your sexist patronising on it
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
from the book of dwyer, chapter 4 (summarised) when disrupting a thread it is as well to make out people objecting to your disruption are themselves disrupting, and declare unctuously you only want a decent discussion, though that's the last thing you desire.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
Some of us were having a very decent discussion before you decided to mansplain to someone studying in this very area.
Please for once can you not just go away and stop your petty sexist behaviour?
No. You were the one who made it personal, as anyone can see by reading the last page. If you'll stop doing so, we can go back to the civil conversation we were having previously. Thank you in advance.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
People have been posting 'fuck off dwyer' for the decade I've been on urban. Because you continually disrupt threads.
Everyone on this thread was being perfectly polite, despite their disagreements, before you barged in with your personal abuse.
Anyone can verify this by reading over the last page or so.
And now you're making it even worse. Stop it now. Let's get back to the discussion.
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
seriously? You're not the wronged party here.
Please leave out the personal abuse. I'm asking nicely. I want to continue this discussion. It isn't your place to order people around.
Now, do you actually have anything of substance to contribute here?
Lurdan
old wave
Comes to something when the historian on fucking Ripper Street criticizes you for historical inaccuracy
There was another unenthusiastic review in the Museums Journal :
House of Horrors
The Ripper's living room with torture instruments eh ? Perhaps this was in the portakabin he towed behind his hansom cab.
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wobbly
Oh, so you haven't noticed the correlation between the common public presentation of victorian values and middle class victorian public morality?
toggle
wobbly
of course a discussion of objectification of women needs dwyer on it to patronise women.what, you think it does need your sexist patronising on it
you're being such a silly little boy by suggesting otherwise that people will start to think you're female
There's a difference between "the common public presentation" and "what is believed today."
Yes, the general public probably still believes that the Victorians put petticoats on piano legs. But as you're aware, no specialist in the field would accept that kind of prudery as typical.
I assume you're read My Secret Life and The Other Victorians? One comes away from those texts with the impression that the upper and lower ends of the Victorian social spectrum were doing nothing else but bonking all day long. That's the general belief among specialists these days, and I think it's probably accurate.
The massive disparity between the facts and the public's perception of the Victorian era is testimony to the staying power of the stereotype. I'm against this museum because it will serve to further perpetuate that stereotype.
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
You're not against it for the commodification of the brutalised murder of women then?
equationgirl
Respect my existence or expect my resistance
says the man who tried to me order around a few posts ago.
if you bothered to read any of the thread before you mansplaining, you would see that I've been contributing throughout. Which is more than you have. And 'it's not your place'? We're not in Victorian England now.
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