Men’s violence against women and girls is a national emergency

[bellaozzydog]

Good.

View attachment 455549

Unfortunatley the vast majority of them claimed they weren’t rapists and had only learned about consent when the were in prison!

Who are the men convicted over rape and assault of Gisèle Pelicot?

Dominique Pelicot has been jailed for 20 years for drugging his then wife and inviting men to rape her – and 50 men were found guilty alongside him

www.theguardian.com

Not exactly riven with guilt or self awareness

 

[emanymton]

This is a very good point. I don't want to hear "my mate Dave doesn't seem like the type". seem. What's it based on? An idea. A concept of a person. Or how they have actually interacted with others. How they talk about others. How they behave towards others.

I think there are a few things at work here.

One is that there are a range of low level problematic behaviours that are acceptable to a lot of people, in some cases even considered romantic.

The other is that we all present different versions of ourselves to different groups, so some men won't show dodgy behaviour when with certain groups.

 

[emanymton]

Unfortunatley the vast majority of them claimed they weren’t rapists and had only learned about consent when the were in prison!

Who are the men convicted over rape and assault of Gisèle Pelicot?

Dominique Pelicot has been jailed for 20 years for drugging his then wife and inviting men to rape her – and 50 men were found guilty alongside him

www.theguardian.com

Not exactly riven with guilt or self awareness

There is at least one who said it couldn't be rape because he had permission from her husband. How can you even think like that?

 

[bellaozzydog]

There is at least one who said it couldn't be rape because he had permission from her husband. How can you even think like that?

If you can face reading the details it was almost all of them claiming that, or they thought is was just a sexual game the couple played and in some way the victim must have given prior consent

 

[Funky_monks]

Do you have many conversations with your brother that you feel would show any questionable attitudes? Anything, slightly off. Do you speak to his friends and partners in a way that might do similar?
If not what is the 'never do anything like that based on'. Assumptions of good behaviour are expected of friends)family but I guess real probing and a non biased look at attitudes and behaviour are less likely.

Well no, the opposite really, but then he seems different around his mates, whilst not misogynistic (I've heard him challenge some stuff before, tho mostly racism), a bit more "wahay the lads", so I've always rather arrogantly assumed that because I'm his brother, I get the "real" him the him who I've known all my life, but maybe I'm wrong and he wants to say what he thinks his family will want to hear.

 

[Santino]

Well no, the opposite really, but then he seems different around his mates, whilst not misogynistic (I've heard him challenge some stuff before, tho mostly racism), a bit more "wahay the lads", so I've always rather arrogantly assumed that because I'm his brother, I get the "real" him the him who I've known all my life, but maybe I'm wrong and he wants to say what he thinks his family will want to hear.

There's no such thing as the "real" him, just different versions of him in different contexts.

 

[kabbes]

Indeed, the construction of the self is indivisible from the context within which that construction is happening. There’s no barrier between “out there” and “in here”. The meaning we make of who we are and the meaning we make of the situation we’re in are mutually constitutive. Even the idea of the performative self, with a “backstage” and “front stage” is ultimately flawed because it ignores the social meaning of the theatre itself in self-construal.

 

[belboid]

There is at least one who said it couldn't be rape because he had permission from her husband. How can you even think like that?

It seems unbelievable, but it wasn't long back husbands always had permission over their wives. Even now consent is irrelevant in French law. Rape is 'sexual penetration, committed against another person by violence, constraint, threat or surprise' - thats why some of the men claimed they didnt realise she had been drugged, as that is an obvious 'constraint.'

 

[emanymton]

It seems unbelievable, but it wasn't long back husbands always had permission over their wives. Even now consent is irrelevant in French law. Rape is 'sexual penetration, committed against another person by violence, constraint, threat or surprise' - thats why some of the men claimed they didnt realise she had been drugged, as that is an obvious 'constraint.'

I know, but I just can't get my head around that fucking thought process.

 

[InArduisFouette]

There are a number of issues here, but the big one is the focus on "stranger danger" most of the time the danger is someone they know, a family memeber, friend or partner.

see also histronics about
illegal immigrants
'muslimic rape gangs '
Drag Queens
trans people

all of this is the white straight men most likely to be violent towards and /or SAing their own partners and children trying to deflect

 

[emanymton]

see also histronics aobut
illegal immigrants
'muslimic rape gangs '
Drag Queens
trans people

all of this is the white straight men most likely to be violent towards and /or SAing their own partners and children trying to deflect

I've just been looking at some murder statistics and while on the whole men are far more likely to be murderd this graph clearly shows were the threat to women's lives is.

Edit- taken from here Homicide in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics

 

[PTK]

It seems unbelievable, but it wasn't long back husbands always had permission over their wives. Even now consent is irrelevant in French law. Rape is 'sexual penetration, committed against another person by violence, constraint, threat or surprise' - thats why some of the men claimed they didnt realise she had been drugged, as that is an obvious 'constraint.'

If consent is irrelevant in French law, as the BBC News website claims, then why did the guilty men claim that their actions were done with the consent of the victim?

 

[brogdale]

If consent is irrelevant in French law, as the BBC News website claims, then why did the guilty men claim that their actions were done with the consent of the victim?

C4News interviewed a French lawyer as part of their coverage last night and she conceded that, although the word is not explicitly used within the legal code, the notion or concept of consent is present throughout and around the sex crime codes.

 

[LakieLady]

It seems unbelievable, but it wasn't long back husbands always had permission over their wives.

It was "legal" until 1991. A man appealed a rape conviction using the argument that by marrying, a woman had given consent, which had previously been accepted, and lost. He appealed, but the conviction was upheld at every stage, right up to the House of Lords.

 

[Lotte]

see also histronics about
illegal immigrants
'muslimic rape gangs '
Drag Queens
trans people

all of this is the white straight men most likely to be violent towards and /or SAing their own partners and children trying to deflect

It's amazing how many of the same people who go on and on about Muslim grooming gangs suddenly go quiet when it's white Christian men grooming and abusing kids. Same with anti-trans types who go quiet when cis men are abusive and violent.

 

[InArduisFouette]

It's amazing how many of the same people who go on and on about Muslim grooming gangs suddenly go quiet when it's white Christian men grooming and abusing kids. Same with anti-trans types who go quiet when cis men are abusive and violent.

even quieter when it revealed that the white straight men grooming kids are members of EDL / BNP / football 'Firms' or mugs who have paid farage money to be a 'member' of Reform UK Ltd ( which has precisely 2 members it's shareholders as a limited company)

 

[two sheds]

Unfortunatley the vast majority of them claimed they weren’t rapists and had only learned about consent when the were in prison!

Who are the men convicted over rape and assault of Gisèle Pelicot?

Dominique Pelicot has been jailed for 20 years for drugging his then wife and inviting men to rape her – and 50 men were found guilty alongside him

www.theguardian.com

Not exactly riven with guilt or self awareness

I read that at least some are appealing their sentences

 

[mentalchik]

And it goes on.....

Ex-rugby union captain Stuart Hogg avoids jail after abusing ex-wife over five years

Montpellier player made MBE in new year honours list previously pleaded guilty to domestic abuse of ex-partner Gillian Hogg

www.independent.co.uk

No prison, keeps his job, keeps his MBE.....makes me so fucking angry, not shown any remorse, disgraceful a 1 year community order for spending 5 years terrorising his ex wife and kids and still held up as a role model

 

[Elpenor]

A very unsavoury man based on local rumours and what he was like in Scotland.

The club he plays for in France employs at least one other with a domestic abuse conviction IIRC

 

[Lotte]

Looks like a certain footballer accused of rape might be getting his collar felt. I hope so, especially as said player is a regular starter for his team.

 

[Elpenor]

And it goes on.....

Ex-rugby union captain Stuart Hogg avoids jail after abusing ex-wife over five years

Montpellier player made MBE in new year honours list previously pleaded guilty to domestic abuse of ex-partner Gillian Hogg

www.independent.co.uk

No prison, keeps his job, keeps his MBE.....makes me so fucking angry, not shown any remorse, disgraceful a 1 year community order for spending 5 years terrorising his ex wife and kids and still held up as a role model

Forgot to add re Hogg - He keeps his current job in France but when he retired in 2023 he went into TV work for the main English rugby broadcaster, as the best known and most accomplished Scottish player this century he would have had a long career in punditry ahead of him plus the lucrative corporate match day stuff. His TV contract got cancelled shortly after his first arrest which I think must have been Autumn 2023. He can only have done a few matches. So I think it is worth noting that at least.

This is why he has returned as a player in France, presumably to cover the legal costs in the short term.

 

[HeatherG]

I know it happens, but I struggle to get my head around it, and just don't get how anyone can treat someone else like that, it makes my blood boil.

They (the males of our species, that is) behave that way because other males (their friends, their relatives, their colleagues) don’t correct them. They don’t because, just like the perpetrator, they feel it’s the ‘manly’ way to behave! Testosterone overload, in other words!

Oh, the perpetrator wouldn’t want his mother, his sister, his wife, his girlfriend or, indeed, any female associated with him, treated badly.

He’d think that the macho way to deal with that, would be to physically ‘lash out’ to show what a ‘big man’ he is, how tough he is, how strong he is, etc.

He would think nothing of behaving in a vile and, or, vulgar manner if the female was on her own, inebriated - (great opportunity for all sorts of ‘macho’ behaviour there!).

These ‘men’ behave like that because they haven’t had a good example in their miserable little lives. They haven’t had a grown up male teaching them, from a young impressionable age, that boys don’t hit girls’. I can remember at primary school, one of my teachers telling a little boy in my class, that “boys don’t hit girls”.

Parents these days don’t give their children sound advice (or, indeed, ANY advice!) on how to behave, how to conduct oneself. They can’t even be bothered to properly toilet train them, sending them to school in nappies - for teacher to deal with it!

 

[danny la rouge]

Men need to think and talk with each other about their role in any social situation. We just assume dominance. That’s where the violence is rooted.

I was on a zoom meeting last night with 9 zen Buddhists. Three of us were men. The meeting was being led by two women. I had plenty I could have said, but I observed the other two men dominating the conversation and so decided to remain silent to give the women - the majority - a chance to speak. But the men filled the gap. Nobody seemed to be annoyed. The meeting leaders allowed it, and didn’t try to steer the women into the conversation, presumably because they like all of us are part of society and have internalised its norms too.

These guys are lovely, respectful, and considerate guys. Not by any means alpha silverbacks. But still the arithmetic was undeniable.

I’ve noticed this in all sorts of situations where the men might be assumed to be more clued up, like anarchist meetings, IWW meetings, and so on. And I’ve without doubt done it myself. Not a shadow of doubt. I do it in threads here too. But I am aware, and I do think about it and act on it. (I know. Big of me, right?).

That’s what men have to talk about and think about. Our unspoken dominance. That’s where the problem lies.

 

[cesare]

Men need to think and talk with each other about their role in any social situation. We just assume dominance. That’s where the violence is rooted.

I was on a zoom meeting last night with 9 zen Buddhists. Three of us were men. The meeting was being led by two women. I had plenty I could have said, but I observed the other two men dominating the conversation and so decided to remain silent to give the women - the majority - a chance to speak. But the men filled the gap. Nobody seemed to be annoyed. The meeting leaders allowed it, and didn’t try to steer the women into the conversation, presumably because they like all of us are part of society and have internalised its norms too.

These guys are lovely, respectful, and considerate guys. Not by any means alpha silverbacks. But still the arithmetic was undeniable.

I’ve noticed this in all sorts of situations where the men might be assumed to be more clued up, like anarchist meetings, IWW meetings, and so on. And I’ve without doubt done it myself. Not a shadow of doubt. I do it in threads here too. But I am aware, and I do think about it and act on it. (I know. Big of me, right?).

That’s what men have to talk about and think about. Our unspoken dominance. That’s where the problem lies.

I'd say that the problem is that men have the dominance in the first place, before questioning their exercising of it.

 

[Red Cat]

What is dominance if it's not in the exercising of it?

 

[danny la rouge]

I'd say that the problem is that men have the dominance in the first place, before questioning their exercising of it.

That’s what I’m asking us to question. But Red Cat puts it succinctly.

 

[cesare]

What is dominance if it's not in the exercising of it?

Power doesn't have to be exercised to exist.

 

[Red Cat]

Can you explain what you mean by power that isn't exercised?

 

[cesare]

Can you explain what you mean by power that isn't exercised?

Someone with a gun has power over someone without one, even if the gun-owner doesn't use it.

Someone can have authority even if they don't exercise it.

Dominance doesn't reside only in exercised power - for example the monarchy has dominance over its subjects.

 

[Sue]

There's some interesting stuff in this article including:

'As part of my research, I sat in on a meeting at a large corporation and took detailed notes on who said what. I’d left with the impression that a particular man had been the source of most of the ideas the group took up and embraced.

But as I typed out my own notes the next day, I was surprised to discover my impression was wrong. Almost all the key suggestions had originated with someone else — a woman. My notes also revealed how I was led astray: The man had spoken at greater length in support of her ideas than she had in raising them.

I wondered whether my mistaken impression was shared by others, so I sought out the eight people who’d been present, and succeeded in contacting four of the five men and all three women who participated.

I asked each one, privately, who they thought had most influenced the group. The two other women named the woman who had come up with the ideas adopted, but all the men named the man who had spoken in favor of those ideas — except that man himself. He named the woman.

She herself did not feel that he had stolen her ideas. In fact, when I asked her, she said with a laugh, “It was not one of those times when a woman says something and it’s ignored, then a man says it and it’s picked up.” Nonetheless, her contribution was underestimated by the other men in the group — and by an observer, me.'

The Truth About How Much Women Talk — and Whether Men Listen

A linguistics professor shares the facts

time.com