Meaning in a Multiverse

[Dillinger4]

Finding out about the possibility of an infinite amount of parallel worlds, has presented me with a problem.

Imagine it is possible to travel between all possible worlds, where every single time line is different. There will be some worlds where it is hugely different. Worlds that are ruled by a Nazi Empire, or destroyed by nuclear war.

Then there will be some worlds that are only marginally different. The person traveling between worlds will find it almost the same as the world he came from, except with one slight difference. In these worlds, no matter what they do, anything can happen. He could find himself living out his most fantastic dreams or the worst nightmares. No matter what they do, all possible decisions are made, there are an infinite number of copies living the opposite of said decision.

And herein lies the problem. In a universe where anything is possible, nothing can make any moral sense. Whatever decisions we make, the outcome does not matter.

Even if we went to kill ourselves out of despair, there would be an infinite number of universes in which the gun misfires, goes through the ceiling above you and say, kills a child.

These questions become more relavent when one thinks of the problem of Human Cloning. Would an exact replica of yourself have a soul? Would we be responsible for our clones actions? In a quantum universe we would have an infinite number of quantum clones. Since some of these may (or must) perform acts of evil, are we responsible for their actions?

 

[Yetman]

I was going to post a thread on inifinite possibilities, this is a bit more interesting.......

 

[kyser_soze]

And herein lies the problem. In a universe where anything is possible, nothing can make any moral sense. Whatever decisions we make, the outcome does not matter.

Even if we went to kill ourselves out of despair, there would be an infinite number of universes in which the gun misfires, goes through the ceiling above you and say, kills a child.

This is a far better articulation of the issues drews was asking a month or so ago - but the answer is the same - it has meaning at the human scale, it means something to you, to others. Ultimately, measured against even the physical size of our own universe, let alone the multiverse, any action has no meaning - our species may well come and go in what it lilttle more than a cosmic blink of an eye. Same goes for all those others - give meaning to your own life, don't seek it externally...,man...

 

[Dillinger4]

Its 'Quantum Existentialism' I suppose o).

This is not something that actually affects my day to day life. I don't spend all my time worrying about meaning, nor does it drive me to despair. Although, In some sense, it does, in a parallel world.



Its more like a little niggling problem that I can't quite solve than a massive hole in my view of the world.

 

[goldenecitrone]

In a quantum universe we would have an infinite number of quantum clones. Since some of these may (or must) perform acts of evil, are we responsible for their actions?

No. I never asked to be cloned.

 

[Dillinger4]

No. I never asked to be cloned.

But in a parallel universe, you couldn't wait to be cloned!

 

[goldenecitrone]

But in a parallel universe, you couldn't wait to be cloned!

That's not me though, is it? That's some tosser pretending to be me in a parallel universe. And if I ever meet the fucker there's going to be hell to pay, believe you me.

 

[Dillinger4]

That's not me though, is it? That's some tosser pretending to be me in a parallel universe. And if I ever meet the fucker there's going to be hell to pay, believe you me.

Well, yes, it is you, having made one different decision in the past.

And in another world, you already have.

 

[Dillinger4]

I just find the implications intriguing. As I may have mentioned on another thread, I am also fascinated by Feynman's 'Sum over Paths'.

 

[smmudge]

It's not just about what impact your free will/choice and resulting actions have. It's about the circumstances and events leading up to these decisions. If you live this life 1000 times over, the next thing you do will always be the next thing you do. And of course it matters, just because you can't observe the full effects of your life.

So shut up and get on with it.

 

[User 301X/5.1]

So.....in a total multiverse theory there exists (or will exist) universes where after I finish this post I will walk away from my computer, pick up a sword and systematically endeavor to slaugher the entire human race.

In one of these universes I will kill all human beings, in another I will fall short by a single human being and only myself and George Bush will remain on the planet. In most I will only kill one or two people before being gunned down by special forces personell and in one I will lose my sword in a freak gust of wind and decide instead to go for a pint in the nearest pub.

 

[longdog]

Can somebody pick holes in this for me...

1) There are an infinite number of universes

2) Given an infinite number of universes everything is possible

3) Everything that is possible will occur (an infinite number of times)

4) In some universes I will be immortal

5) In some of the universes where I am immortal I will take over the 'soul' from this universe when I die in this universe

6) Therefore I am immortal (and so is everyone else)

I'm sure that's probably bollocks but tell me why.

 

[Dillinger4]

Can somebody pick holes in this for me...

1) There are an infinite number of universes

2) Given an infinite number of universes everything is possible

3) Everything that is possible will occur (an infinite number of times)

4) In some universes I will be immortal

5) In some of the universes where I am immortal I will take over the 'soul' from this universe when I die in this universe

6) Therefore I am immortal (and so is everyone else)

I'm sure that's probably bollocks but tell me why.

It isn't possible to be immortal.

The universe would create conditions that would make life impossible billions of years before the universe itself dies. And thats before we even consider the problem of Entropy, which is that all order reverts to chaos eventually.

Interesting though. I am sure my answer is not comprehensive though.

*waits for somebody more scientific to come along*

 

[longdog]

It isn't possible to be immortal.

The universe would create conditions that would make life impossible billions of years before the universe itself dies. And thats before we even consider the problem of Entropy, which is that all order reverts to chaos eventually.

I was sort of ignoring the whole end of the universe bit but then what would stop my consciousness jumping in to alternative me in a younger 'universe'?

 

[Jonti]

Can somebody pick holes in this for me...

1) There are an infinite number of universes

2) Given an infinite number of universes everything is possible

3) Everything that is possible will occur (an infinite number of times)

4) In some universes I will be immortal

5) In some of the universes where I am immortal I will take over the 'soul' from this universe when I die in this universe

6) Therefore I am immortal (and so is everyone else)

I'm sure that's probably bollocks but tell me why.

Nice.

Dillinger4's comments about entropy seem to me spot on -- I'd say he's identified why the argument's bollocks, a reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps assumption 1) above, is incorrect?

(Multiple universes indeed! Tshaw!!)

 

[Dillinger4]

I was sort of ignoring the whole end of the universe bit but then what would stop my consciousness jumping in to alternative me in a younger 'universe'?

Hmm I see what you are trying to say. The problem there would be with consciousness 'jumping'.

You have to remember that each different you in each different universe is a you that took an opposite decision at some point in your life. It is a person distinct from the you in this universe.

But what I think your trying to suggest is that the past and the future will always exist as well, as there will be all possible worlds. That I am not sure I can really answer.

I found thinking about Quantum Possibility much easier when I got my head (partly) around Richard Feynman's 'Sum over Paths'. It made me realise we are living in a Quantum Universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sum-over-paths

 

[Dillinger4]

Nice.

Dillinger4's comments about entropy seem to me spot on -- I'd say he's identified why the argument's bollocks, a reductio ad absurdum. Perhaps assumption 1) above, is incorrect?

(Multiple universes indeed! Tshaw!!)

I should make it clear that much of what I have read is about string theory. The idea of a multiverse could very well prove incorrect - this is the nature of scientfic theory.

 

[maya]

Even if one postulates an infinite amount of parallel universes in addition to this one, what exactly would make you suppose that the physics/natural laws of this universe would apply to these other worlds?*

(*hypothetically speaking, not as in believing it)

 

[Dillinger4]

Even if one postulates an infinite amount of parallel universes in addition to this one, what exactly would make you suppose that the physics/natural laws of this universe would apply to these other worlds?*

(*hypothetically speaking, not as in believing it)

Well, there wouldn't be, in a lot of them, as the universe would have expanded (or not) differently.

 

[CNT36]

Surely if it was so there would be a universe where the intellect, resources and rules of nature exist to make a fuck of great bomb that could destroy not only that universe but pass its destruction into all others. While it might be stopped a near infinite number of times...... If that was the case the only reason any liofe could exist is if there were multiple multiverses. The easy answer is its impossible to make that kind of weapon but thats fucking boring.

 

[Dillinger4]

Surely if it was so there would be a universe where the intellect, resources and rules of nature exist to make a fuck of great bomb that could destroy not only that universe but pass its destruction into all others. While it might be stopped a near infinite number of times...... If that was the case the only reason any liofe could exist is if there were multiple multiverses. The easy answer is its impossible to make that kind of weapon but thats fucking boring.

Sorry, what did you say?

 

[Dillinger4]

Does nobody else find the thought of possible worlds fascinating then?



*Goes off to continue Leibniz essay*

 

[Dillinger4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation

 

[Dillinger4]

Has nobody read 'The Garden of Forking Paths" by Jorge Luis Borges?

 

[Dillinger4]

How about the idea of 'Quantum Immortality'. A thought experiment:

Think the Schrödinger's cat, experiment, but from the point of view of the cat, as it were.

So a physicist puts himself within the box, and there is a 50-50 chance he will die. If the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) is correct, then with each result the phyicist will be split into a world where he lives and and a world where he dies. In the worlds where he dies, he ceases to exist. However, from the point of view of the non-dead copies of the physicist, the experiment will continue without him ceasing to exist. If the MWI is correct, the surviving copies of the physicist will observe that he is immortal, at least from his point of view.

 

[MysteryGuest]

It isn't possible to be immortal.

The universe would create conditions that would make life impossible billions of years before the universe itself dies. And thats before we even consider the problem of Entropy, which is that all order reverts to chaos eventually.

Interesting though. I am sure my answer is not comprehensive though.

*waits for somebody more scientific to come along*

I've just read about Tipler and his Omega point in the Marcus Chown book "The Never-Ending Days of Being Dead". I mean the idea is absolutely bonkers barmy nuts, but in fact somebody (ie Tipler) has come up with a hypothetical way round this little issue. You should check the Chown book out.

As for "meaning". Why exactly does it lose its meaning in multiple universes? Or does it lose its meaning? Each universe has its own meaning, after all. In your example, there "appears" to be an invisible meta-checker there on the sly who goes about each universe summing and cancelling out all the meaning. Which has to be there in the first place in order to be cancelled out of course. The psychology of the example is very interesting, as it appears to have this feeling of "what if", in a normal thought experiment style, coupled with a horrified undertow of "this is really how it is". A strange thought experiment indeed.

 

[MysteryGuest]

It's as if there's a "deus ex machina", which while being responsible for meaning, is unable to sense it! God is numb to meaning!


()

 

[Stigmata]

How about the idea of 'Quantum Immortality'. A thought experiment:

Think the Schrödinger's cat, experiment, but from the point of view of the cat, as it were.

So a physicist puts himself within the box, and there is a 50-50 chance he will die. If the Many Worlds Interpretation (MWI) is correct, then with each result the phyicist will be split into a world where he lives and and a world where he dies. In the worlds where he dies, he ceases to exist. However, from the point of view of the non-dead copies of the physicist, the experiment will continue without him ceasing to exist. If the MWI is correct, the surviving copies of the physicist will observe that he is immortal, at least from his point of view.

I've been reading about this recently. It's pretty chilling when you think about it. Down the line, billions of years from now, will be some future version of me that can't die however much he might want to by then.

 

[Dillinger4]

*bump*

For Vintage Paw

 

[Vintage Paw]

*bump*

For Vintage Paw

Thank you