Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[butchersapron]

I suppose that at the very least the British security services must feel that their long history of covering up violent paedophiles can come in handy now.

Oddly enough, this person is an expert on that too. In that instance he doesn't trust those sort of sources.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Isis fighters must be allowed back into UK, says ex-MI6 chief

Returning ISIS fighters freed if they help combat radicalism

There is also the point that jailing them will engender resentment, and make it more likely they would radicalise others whilst in prison.

 

[butchersapron]

Where, really, do you start with an argument a few days after returning jihadis killed 130 people that suggests that returning jihadis should be allowed back and not face any detention or questioning. That they should then be invited to around the areas that jihadis are recruited from, speaking to those who may be especially attracted to jihadism?

 

[butchersapron]

There is also the point that jailing them will engender resentment, and make it more likely they would radicalise others whilst in prison.

I don't like getting locked up.

 

[DaveCinzano]

 

[gawkrodger]

on a lighter note

edit: Damn you DaveCinzano!

 

[butchersapron]

They going to reveal the jihadis who took part in an online competition?

 

[butchersapron]

Now, i've met dave but rodger keeps dodging me...

 

[free spirit]

Where, really, do you start with an argument a few days after returning jihadis killed 130 people that suggests that returning jihadis should be allowed back and not face any detention or questioning. That they should then be invited to around the areas that jihadis are recruited from, speaking to those who may be especially attracted to jihadism?

which bit of my posts suggests they shouldn't face any detention or questioning? This bit from my first post on the subject should straighten that out a bit.

I suppose I'd expect everyone coming back to be interviewed, subject to extra surveillance, and arrested and tried if there's evidence they've been involved in war crimes, targeting civilians etc. But also supported with councilling, help to reintegrate, find work etc

I'm just saying that simply locking up all of them and throwing away the key is / would be counterproductive, and yes I am arguing that some of them would be the most effective counter point there could be to the propaganda being used by ISIS to recruit new volunteers.

 

[butchersapron]

which bit of my posts suggests they shouldn't face any detention or questioning? This bit from my first post on the subject should straighten that out a bit.


I'm just saying that simply locking up all of them and throwing away the key is / would be counterproductive, and yes I am arguing that some of them would be the most effective counter point there could be to the propaganda being used by ISIS to recruit new volunteers.

That bit that you just posted. Solar panel cunt.

 

[butchersapron]

No one cares or changes when recidivists are forced to talk to them. It just breaks up the day.

 

[hot air baboon]

There is also the point that jailing them will engender resentment, and make it more likely they would radicalise others whilst in prison.

...well the idea of dishing out a free-pass to any returnees ( much as I hope their collective wish for a glorious martyrdom is fully realised ).....has got to be barking ...at the very least we are looking at extended periods of "quarantine" to identify the rabid-dogs who've developed a taste for human blood.....

.....but having said that the paedo issue is actually quite germane....surely the argument about de-radicalisation is the same as that confronted by the penal system wrt to dangerous paedophiles....not an alternative to prison & just retribution for crimes committed but as part of the sentence to actually be made to confront their offending and embark on programmes to make them unlearn some of their beliefs and assumptions...what else do you do with them....

...ironically afaik the poster boys for running the most succesful de-radicalisation programme for jihadis are the Saudis...not noted for the most progressive judicial and penal policies :

......the success appears mixed to say the least - as I suspect it is with hard-core child molesters.....it has to be accepted there are people who are simply too dangerous to be at liberty...

Deradicalization Programs in Saudi Arabia: A Case Study | Middle East Institute

Saudi Arabia has, over the past decade, installed and developed what has been called “the best funded and longest continuously running counter-radicalization program in existence.”[3] The program aims to "deprogram" jihadist radicals, changing their beliefs and behaviors until they no longer pose a threat to the state. However, despite the program’s ostensibly high success rate, which will be discussed in more detail below, it has proven unable to rehabilitate the most radical and dangerous militants. Furthermore, the program's utility as a model for other nations is limited by its reliance on Saudi-specific factors.

....my impression of at least some of these hyped-up western kids who ended up over there is that they are totally lacking any military skills and have been kept doing the equivalent of peeling the spuds...

 

[free spirit]

That bit that you just posted. Solar panel cunt.

are you completely incapable of having a discussion without resorting to ever more bizarre personal attacks?

I didn't have you down as a kill them all, lock them all up type, but I guess I was wrong on that.

 

[butchersapron]

Not much space for spud peeling in isis. You're meat up at kobani or you're crucifying people for smoking/talking back at raqqa. Or you're raping and slaving over the border. They're lean on the numbers. This is what you do when you join ISIS.

 

[butchersapron]

are you completely incapable of having a discussion without resorting to ever more bizarre personal attacks?

I didn't have you down as a kill them all, lock them all up type, but I guess I was wrong on that.

Read a bit better then.

 

[free spirit]

WOW. Thanks so much.

here's another report for you to ignore.

eta endorsed by multiple UK Syrian support organisations, who probably know a little more about this than you.

Issue 5: Rehabilitate (Rather than Criminalise) Foreign Fighters Policy Recommendation:

To rehabilitate and educate (rather than prosecute) foreign fighters and people holding violent extremist views who have not committed any crimes.

Policy Explanation: Prosecute only those British foreign fighters (hereinafter, foreign fighters) for whom there is clear evidence that they have committed a crime while abroad in Syria. Pursue rehabilitation and reintegration for those British nationals who either intended to travel to Syria (but did not go) or travelled but did not commit crimes.

Policy Incentives for the UK:
1. Decrease the flow of foreign fighters a. The UK's current policy of criminalisation is not sufficiently deterring individuals from travelling to Syria to fight. 87 This is in stark contrast with Denmark's model as well as Germany's Hayat Programme which utilise rehabilitation and reintegration to curb the flow of foreign fighters.88 For example, the number of foreign fighters leaving Aarhus, Denmark decreased from 31 in 2013 to only 1 in 2014, 89 while Germany's Hayat Programme describes itself as having made progress in 30-40 (out of 100) cases since 2011.90

2. Provide an effective escape for those foreign fighters who regret their decision to travel abroad a. Many foreign fighters travel to Syria out of ignorance and subsequently regret their decision,91 often risking their lives to escape the groups that they joined. 92 In denying these individuals the option of returning home, the UK is essentially condemning them to a life of international crime that they so desperately want to avoid.93 b. Refusing UK citizens who have chosen to travel to join ISIS the option of returning to the UK additionally passes the weight of responsibility on to the Syrian people. By not taking responsibility for British citizens, the UK Government creates a direct threat to the civilian population in Syria.

3. Obtain the increased cooperation of families and communities in dealing with the issue of foreign fighters a. Families and communities overwhelmingly do not want their children to travel to Syria to fight.94 However, prospects of heavy sentencing can deter them from cooperating with the authorities. For example, the mother of Yusuf Zubair Sarwar, who alerted the authorities of her son's disappearance to Syria, later regretted her decision to do so given the heavy twelve-year sentence that he received.95

4. Establish strong voices to prevent the radicalisation of Britons a. Rehabilitated and reintegrated foreign fighters, who have seen the realities on the ground in Syria, can serve as powerful voices to prevent the radicalisation of other individuals.96 This approach was utilised in Saudi Arabia, where returning fighters went on the media to expose the realities of ISIS. 97

5. Alleviate concerns regarding the inconsistent application of the law a. Foreign fighters to Libya, Iraq, Israel, and Lebanon were not prosecuted by the Government.98 b. Even within the Syrian context, not all cases of foreign fighters are treated equally. 99 c. The UK Government itself provides military support to some Syrian opposition groups.100 Therefore, prosecuting individuals who travel to support these groups (without committing any war crimes) is counter-intuitive.101

http://www.rrsoc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Syria_Between_Dictatorship&ISIS.pdf

 

[butchersapron]

here's another report for you to ignore.

http://www.rrsoc.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Syria_Between_Dictatorship&ISIS.pdf

What on earth is late night googling of keywords and then posting links to docs you haven't read supposed to show?

 

[butchersapron]

RRSOC are people i generally trust btw -too heavy on CAGE and their latest report was as soft as fuck on returning jihadis/tourists whilst making a false equivalence with YPG fighters. But you didn't really read it or know anything.

 

[free spirit]

What on earth is late night googling of keywords and then posting links to docs you haven't read supposed to show?

erm, that they've proposed the same thing as me.

 

[butchersapron]

erm, that they've proposed the same thing as me.

Excellent. Someone else is as daft as you.

 

[free spirit]

RRSOC are people i generally trust btw -too heavy on CAGE and their latest report was as soft as fuck on returning jihadis/tourists whilst making a false equivalence with YPG fighters. But you didn't really read it or know anything.

You obviously must be right, how could they possibly hope to attain the levels of understanding of the situation that you have?

 

[butchersapron]

You obviously must be right, how could the possibly hope to attain the levels of understanding of the situation that you have?

By hard work and not late night coke and shaky liberalism.

 

[free spirit]

By hard work and not late night coke and shaky liberalism.

so you actually do think you understand the situation better than them?

Just so others are clear on this, that's Butchersapron's opinion vs that written and endorsed by 6 UK Syrian Opposition support organisations, plus kings college, plus an ex MI5 / MI6 counter terrorism chief. But Butch appears to have anointed himself as Urban's expert on such matters due to his er 'hard work', so obviously they all must have got it wrong.

Oh, and late night coke? Really?

 

[butchersapron]

erm, that they've proposed the same thing as me.

so you actually do think you understand the situation better than them?

Just so others are clear on this, that's Butchersapron's opinion vs that written and endorsed by 6 UK Syrian Opposition support organisations, plus kings college, plus an ex MI5 / MI6 counter terrorism chief. But Butch appears to have anointed himself as Urban's expert on such matters due to his er 'hard work', so obviously they all must have got it wrong.

Oh, and late night coke? Really?

Tell me, how many of the docs that you've linked to have you actually read.The key one was a part of debate within the syrian opposition in the UK a month or so back, were you aware of that at all before your late night googling? What were the arguments if so?

And no, going to have to just say the rest of your googling is irrelevant because.... it's googling.

 

[butchersapron]

Oh, and late night coke? Really?

Yeah - you're a coked up boss arsehole. You know it, i know it, they know it.

 

[Zabo]

 

[TomUS]

A religious test for admitting refugees.....a true man of god.

On Sunday, Republican presidential candidate and senator Ted Cruz said that Muslim refugees from Syria should not be permitted to enter the United States. Christian refugees, however, are okay, he argued, because there is “no meaningful risk” that Christians will commit terrorist acts.

Ted Cruz Says Christians Pose No Meaningful Risk of Terrorism

 

[bimble]

There is no one who hasn't chosen to be there now.

#ISIS: Islamic State ‘slaughters 100 foreign deserters’?

No one cares or changes when recidivists are forced to talk to them. It just breaks up the day.

Not suggesting that it's an attractive idea to invite these people back and organise book tours for them instead of letting them be martyrs but, at the same time, fits perfectly with idea of IS as a gang. Defectors / survivors talking to kids about how the lifestyle is not as glamorous as on tv has long been the best or only idea on the table for preventing recruitment to your everyday common or garden variety.
&

"The defectors’ very existence shatters the image of unity and determination that the group seeks to convey. Their narratives highlight the group’s contradictions and hypocrisies. Their example may encourage others to follow, and their credibility can help deter wannabes from joining."

http://icsr.info/wp-content/uploads...The-Narratives-of-Islamic-State-Defectors.pdf

 

[Red Cat]

For a very good and useful journalistic narrative based thing ( and i would start there) is Black Flags: The Rise of Isis - it's an 'amazon' type book but really gets beyond the idea that this is a new thing. A lead in.

I've started reading it; its very readable, excellent writing.

 

[dylanredefined]

Let them come back screen them and check on them. It undermines IS as suddenly the foreigners have a way out, It is a source of intelligence , and they
can be used to show kids it is not cool. If we have proof they committed war crimes they get jail.