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Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

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cesare said:
And now with the emotional manipulation rather than straight forwardly saying, sorry I should have just asked. Perhaps you should be ignoring people rather than suggesting other people do the ignoring.
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Yeah, that's what it is. Thanks for your confidence in me, especially having met. And I'll do that for you now.
 
dylanredefined said:
Let them come back screen them and check on them. It undermines IS as suddenly the foreigners have a way out, It is a source of intelligence , and they can be used to show kids it is not cool. If we have proof they committed war crimes they get jail.
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far too risky - the chances of being able to prove guilt to 'everyday' murders and rapes in a warzone like Syria/Iraq to the satisfaction of a court is not far off zero, so in effect the only former-IS people who face any serious risk are the celebrities like Jihadi John. which, as i think we'd agree, barely touches the surface of the orgy of killing and rape that IS have indulged in.

secondly, i'd be very sceptical of rehabilitation - you might achieve genuine rehabilitation with a percentage, but what percentage that you don't but don't know it is acceptable to you? for me, its not a high number...

i understand that returnees can be a valuable sourse of int - there was a thing on R4 in the last two days about a French returnee who reported to DGSI that as soon as he was approached by the IS Belgian bloke (who'se name escapes me..) currently in Syria he was asked about attacking a music venue in France - but for me the dangers of returning, unrebilitated, unrepentant IS people is greater than both the damage to IS of an outflow of foreign fighters, and the int windfall they might bring.

in truth, the only safe option that doesn't involve internment for the rest of their lives or execution is to put them on an island in the Atlantic with shelter, tools and food to tide them over until they can farm the place. thats not going to happen, so every other option is more compromised and less safe...
 
JC himself would have had a battering on here yesterday..
"Asked if he agreed with a post from Stop the War on Twitter (subsequently deleted) saying Paris was “reaping the whirlwind of western support for extremist violence in Middle East”, Corbyn replied: "I would not use that language.."
But he said he did think Western policy was a factor in explaining the attacks..
"We have created a situation where some of these forces have grown. Obviously, I absolutely blame those that did it. Absolutely, obviously, Isil are totally wrong. Obviously they are some kind of nihilistic movement that are a threat to everybody. ."
 
Sounds reasonable to me, but there are definitely loons out there who like to pretend we've been nothing but a force for good in the Middle East
 
Idris2002 said:
How is putting them on an Atlantic island not internment for life? (but I get where you're coming from with most of that post, kebabking )
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nicer than Belmarsh? its, externment i suppose - its not keeping people in a cage, it allows people who've not been convicted of things to build a new life if they wish, but it also keeps them away from the rest of us.

imperfect certainly, but isn't every option in this nightmare?
 
DrRingDing said:
Oh fuck I forgot about that. Eco hippies are going to be severely battered. There's a veritable fuckload of small and large direct actions planned. I hope the twats with guns think twice before firing.
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I hope the people doing actions have a serious think about whether what they're doing is sensible and appropriate.
 
kebabking said:
secondly, i'd be very sceptical of rehabilitation - you might achieve genuine rehabilitation with a percentage, but what percentage that you don't but don't know it is acceptable to you? for me, its not a high number... <snip> but for me the dangers of returning, unrebilitated, unrepentant IS people is greater than both the damage to IS of an outflow of foreign fighters, and the int windfall they might bring.
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You don't need to apply a universal treatment to the entire set of people, you can cherrypick based on probability. So if you think you have someone who rather than being fully radicalised has naively skipped off to the ME to engage in a rebellious desert adventure, only to discover the horrors of war, you might have there a good candidate for using as effective propaganda against their peers doing the same. More effective than a message from authority and media, certainly. As with any system, it's open to be gamed to some extent, and a success of that would be disastrous beyond not catching them in the first place, but it's not like you necessarily have to pick between releasing everyone into the wild or not.

I suspect the intelligence services have the capability and resources to do this successfully, and it probably happens to some extent already, but I also suspect the lack of political and public appetite for it stops it being done more effectively.
 
...what legal model do we apply to ISIS....

...I suspect Corbyn is proposing a highly individualistsic approach of slapping handcuffs on with all the standards and burdens of proof attendant on any conventional criminal due process..."like dishing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500" as a wise man once observed

or collective guilt a la Nuremburg mass war-crimes trials where the SS were declared a criminal organisation guilty of genocide ..at which point legally as well as morally it ceases to make a difference at what level of cog you are in the machine since as a massive bureaucracy the whole show was kept functioning by people doing filing and train timetables....

or the US RICO act which

...allows the leaders of a syndicate to be tried for the crimes which they ordered others to do or assisted them in doing, closing a perceived loophole that allowed a person who instructed someone else to, for example, murder, to be exempt from the trial because he did not actually commit the crime personally.

.....and isn't a Nuremburg trial assuming the conclusion of unconditional surrender with the adversary...which I don't honestly see forthcoming any time soon...
 
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