Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[existentialist]

googling yer man's name - and taking the name of the poster into account - i think we can safely say conspiraloon without wasting precious minutes listening to it.

Thank you. After I'd posted, I noticed the clip was 10 minutes long

 

[8den]

Who and why? I rarely waste time on RT

Checking on his Twitter profile he appears to be wibbling on about GLADIO and making fast friends with Jim Corr so clearly he's hatstand.

 

[Artaxerxes]

One thing that does seem to emerge is that the kind of people who get caught up in this stuff - the footsoldiers, if you will - aren't really particularly religiously motivated, or especially idealistic (though they may claim those as after-the-fact justifications for what they are doing), but lost. For whatever reason, they have lost, or never had, a "place" in society. Along comes something like ISIS, al Quaeda, or an intifada, and all of a sudden, there's a cause they can join, something to give their life meaning, even if it means a very much shorter life.

Indeed, a comprehensive welfare and equality program will kill ISIS and its ilk better than any thousand bombs. Give people hope and a place in the world and the anger will go, let them know they matter.

Its why I find this sort of thing a bit tasteless

Last thing Paris needs is people charging in with more guns, they aren't the answer.

 

[existentialist]

Why do people keep mentioning mental illness and in particular psychosis wrt Islamic terrorists? I find it very offensive.

"Otherness"

"I wouldn't ever take up arms against civilians or bomb them, so therefore someone who does must be absolutely different from me."

And we have a long tradition of using madness/insanity as a very handy "othering" tool. Even in normal speech...

 

[mauvais]

Indeed, a comprehensive welfare and equality program will kill ISIS and its ilk better than any thousand bombs. Give people hope and a place in the world and the anger will go, let them know they matter.

Whilst I don't disagree that this would be a positive, it doesn't appear to be an answer.

What welfare programme do you think the often Western-born terrorists of the last two decades would have been sated by? How much extra hope do you need to bring to West Yorkshire, for example?

 

[teqniq]

Ongoing raid in Belgium

 

[Artaxerxes]

Whilst I don't disagree that this would be a positive, it doesn't appear to be an answer.

What welfare programme do you think the often Western-born terrorists of the last two decades would have been sated by? How much extra hope do you need to bring to West Yorkshire, for example?

Jobs, integration, a sense of not being ignored in favour of London?

There is a lot of anger out there, and its been ignored and pasted over, usually in favour of "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" rather than the poorest and hardest hit of society.

 

[Idris2002]

Indeed, a comprehensive welfare and equality program will kill ISIS and its ilk better than any thousand bombs. Give people hope and a place in the world and the anger will go, let them know they matter.

Its why I find this sort of thing a bit tasteless

Last thing Paris needs is people charging in with more guns, they aren't the answer.

The thing with that cartoon is that the Statue of Liberty was originally donated to New York by the French state.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The thing with that cartoon is that the Statue of Liberty was originally donated to New York by the French state.

I'm aware of this, but the statue is also somewhat more heavily armed than last time I saw it.

 

[Spymaster]

Thank you. After I'd posted, I noticed the clip was 10 minutes long

I watched about a minute of it.

It's Casually Red in disguise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

"Otherness"

"I wouldn't ever take up arms against civilians or bomb them, so therefore someone who does must be absolutely different from me."

And we have a long tradition of using madness/insanity as a very handy "othering" tool. Even in normal speech...

Well yes, the people who walked into a gig and started mowing down people with machine guns are 'other' from me. As are people who walk into schools and start shooting. tbh I find it odd to hear the word 'offensive' about people questioning the mental health of the former. It might not be right, perhaps, and certainly isn't the whole story, but 'offensive' even to ask the question? I don't think so.

 

[existentialist]

Well yes, the people who walked into a gig and started mowing down people with machine guns are 'other' from me. As are people who walk into schools and start shooting. tbh I find it odd to hear the word 'offensive' about people questioning the mental health of the former. It might not be right, perhaps, and certainly isn't the whole story, but 'offensive' even to ask the question? I don't think so.

Well, I might agree with you there - "pointless" is probably a better word.

But it is offensive, though - offensive to all those who are suffering from mental illnesses, and who have to live with the stigma of having their almost undoubtedly harmless-to-others disorder being associated with extreme violence and terrorism.

 

[mauvais]

Jobs, integration, a sense of not being ignored in favour of London?

Heh. So what level of regional devolution do you think will stomp out ISIS? How many terrorists jacked it in after Manchester got an elected mayor or the BBC moved to Salford, do you think?

There is no answer here. There are things that one should get on with regardless, but none of them are going to bring about an end to radicalised, empty agenda terrorism.

As it looks today, intransigence, solidarity and making evident the pointlessness of terrorism is the only effective response.

 

[Pickman's model]

Why do people keep mentioning mental illness and in particular psychosis wrt Islamic terrorists? I find it very offensive.

i find it very stupid too.

 

[Artaxerxes]

As it looks today, intransigence, solidarity and making evident the pointlessness of terrorism is the only effective response.

Possibly, but doing our best to ensure a fair society plays its part to and is surely better than damping down civil liberties and repression.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well yes, the people who walked into a gig and started mowing down people with machine guns are 'other' from me. As are people who walk into schools and start shooting. tbh I find it odd to hear the word 'offensive' about people questioning the mental health of the former. It might not be right, perhaps, and certainly isn't the whole story, but 'offensive' even to ask the question? I don't think so.

yes. because 'we' are sane and so 'they' are mad. if the last century has taught us anything it is that people like you and me can do things like they can.

 

[teqniq]

Turkey warned France over Paris attacker: Turkish official

 

[Pickman's model]

Turkey warned France over Paris attacker: Turkish official

i said they'd be known to the authorities.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

There's this assumption that ISIS is comprised entirely of religious maniacs with "mad beliefs". I'm not so sure that part of that isn't a social veneer stuck over what is actually (for many of the western joiners) fairly secular social alienation - people claiming to be wholeheartedly in support of the Caliphate and shari'a etc because it's what the identity group they've joined does. Most people, even those within such environments, are able to intellectually separate what they profess to believe from what they actually believe.
As for the beliefs being "bonkers", from our perspective, of course they are! From the perspective of the fundamentalists punting those beliefs though, they're a common-sense reaction to outside stimuli, and incorporate one of the oldest unifying factors in the book - the naming of an external enemy upon whom everything and anything can be blamed.

No accident that they and their sympathisers often seem to believe in all the commonplace conspiracy shit as well.

 

[Pickman's model]

No accident that they and their sympathisers often seem to believe in all the commonplace conspiracy shit as well.

wasn't all that long ago that many people in the most advanced country in europe fervently believed the jews were germany's misfortune.

 

[butchersapron]

Turkey warned France over Paris attacker: Turkish official

I wonder what this warning consisted of? It wouldn't surprise me, if it exists, to have been nothing more than a name in list of french passport holders who entered turkey under suspicion of going to fight in Syria.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

wasn't all that long ago that many people in the most advanced country in europe fervently believed the jews were germany's misfortune.

I know. As I said, this conspiracy shit is pretty commonplace. Believers in it tend to be those who can't cope with the fact that human existence is messy and can only be, at best, partially understood and explained.

 

[mauvais]

Possibly, but doing our best to ensure a fair society plays its part to and is surely better than damping down civil liberties and repression.

Absolutely. And have no doubt, I don't object to the theme of your politics, which I'm probably in complete agreement with.

What I have the problem with is this idea that we can wholly avert this stuff through some action, which is - inadvertently or otherwise - victim blaming. It would be immediately rejected in any other sphere. Well if we - byword not for any individual but their country's government - hadn't got involved in Syria we wouldn't have been attacked. Oh right. And if she hadn't gone out dressed like that she wouldn't have been attacked.

We should be doing, or not doing, a whole bunch of stuff. But it's independent of terrorism - we should be doing it because it's the right thing, not for safety margin or a hopeless attempt at appeasement. How we conduct ourselves in the world and our exposure & reaction to terrorism are no doubt linked, sometimes strongly, but rarely in a particularly helpful, intervenable cause-and-effect way.

 

[Jimmy Turr]

Indeed, a comprehensive welfare and equality program will kill ISIS and its ilk better than any thousand bombs. Give people hope and a place in the world and the anger will go, let them know they matter.

Its why I find this sort of thing a bit tasteless

Last thing Paris needs is people charging in with more guns, they aren't the answer.

It's no accident that all this is unfolding when the chances of what you say needs to happen actually happening is receding all the time.

 

[marty21]

I am having fun elsewhere (google +) 'debating' with kippers - apparently they warned us this would happen with all the open borders stuff and what we should do is close the borders, and burn the ships that are taking them forrins here (along with the hordes of ISIS terrorists) and send them all back. As far as I'm aware the only evidence linking the terrorists with the refugees is a passport found near one of the blown up bodies - and the only identified culprit is a French born Algerian?

 

[Pickman's model]

I am having fun elsewhere (google +) 'debating' with kippers - apparently they warned us this would happen with all the open borders stuff and what we should do is close the borders, and burn the ships that are taking them forrins here (along with the hordes of ISIS terrorists) and send them all back. As far as I'm aware the only evidence linking the terrorists with the refugees is a passport found near one of the blown up bodies - and the only identified culprit is a French born Algerian?

have you pointed out the number of bnpers and other assorted fash done for terrorist offences in the past ten years? perhaps they should be sent somewhere.

 

[Idris2002]

I'm aware of this, but the statue is also somewhat more heavily armed than last time I saw it.

My reaction to a heavily armed statue wading through the Atlantic towards us is "thank you my dear, but you have delighted us enough already".

 

[Pickman's model]

My reaction to a heavily armed statue wading through the Atlantic towards us is "thank you my dear, but you have delighted us enough already".

in a land where even the statues are armed, one heroine stands tall...

 

[Jimmy Turr]

I am having fun elsewhere (google +) 'debating' with kippers - apparently they warned us this would happen with all the open borders stuff and what we should do is close the borders, and burn the ships that are taking them forrins here (along with the hordes of ISIS terrorists) and send them all back. As far as I'm aware the only evidence linking the terrorists with the refugees is a passport found near one of the blown up bodies - and the only identified culprit is a French born Algerian?

Don't take too seriously what these types say. They're too politically naïve to realize that what they say needs doing couldn't even happen under a UKIP led government-of which there is absolutely no possibility. The main damage their kind of view does is to confuse and depoliticize those that the left should be able to reach out to and influence but can no longer do.

 

[mauvais]

You should let the Yanks know that the French already have a domestic statue by the way, and like so many transatlantic comparisons, one that's significantly more manoeuvrable in the narrow European streets.