Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[frogwoman]

Its very very long , just mostly more of the same though, with loads of quaran quotations in and a horrific photo at the bottom. You're not missing much I promise.

EDIT: if it is wrong / bad for U75 to put links such as that here please tell me i don't know.

It's not wrong I just would rather not click on it to read it tbh

 

[frogwoman]

By the way I have read a bit of stuff by jihadi loons so I pretty much know the sort of thing it will be, extensive quoting from religious texts and banging on about 'Dawlah' referring to isis

 

[Mr Moose]

As for the inevitable backlash against immigrants. It is fucking obvious to anyone with half a brain the people in that camp are fleeing this sort of thing. I.e. murderous bastards. They don't want this they are running away from it. Rub that in the faces of right wing cunts.

Most people think that about 99.99% of them. But refugees will not be welcomed if it's demonstrated that this is a route by which assassins enter, however pressing their needs.

 

[Belushi]

Reports of shots being fired on a Brussels bus

 

[8den]

President Assad just happens to be an elected dictator . Those who ran against him in the elections polled extremely poorly .

Quoted for stupidity.

 

[Pickman's model]

more of a despot than a dictator. but getting back to brussels...

 

[Mr Moose]

Whatever conflagration ensues only the Russians will decide Assad's future from outside. Having committed to their man and paid dearly for it they will not be defeated. There may be proxies but there will be no regime change made by the West now. That moment has gone and stopping the refugee flow/defeating IS are far bigger priorities.

 

[Tony_LeaS]

Reports of shots being fired on a Brussels bus

Heard this on radio, minor news outlets saying about it, one or two saying that the police have said its rumours and not true. Very early stages though before anything confirmed.

 

[5t3IIa]

Reports of shots being fired on a Brussels bus

Today prog reported this then withdrew it...

 

[bimble]

Here's another - even more eloquent & clear bit of jijadi propaganda (an important strategic handbook apparently) which actually uses the word polarisation.

"Dragging the masses into the battle requires more actions which will inflame opposition and which will make the people enter into the battle, willing or unwilling, such that each individual will go to the side which he supports. We must make this battle very violent, such that death is a heartbeat away, so that the two groups will realize that entering this battle will frequently lead to death. ... This was the policy of battle for the pioneers: to transform societies into two opposing groups, igniting a violent battle between them whose end is either victory or martyrdom, whose emblem is either glorious war or humiliating peace. .. This battle alone, through its vehemence and its (ability to) separate (people), is that which will enable us to polarize the largest number of individuals toward our ranks such that we will not grieve afterwards over those who are destroyed in the other rank. "

https://azelin.files.wordpress.com/...al-stage-through-which-the-umma-will-pass.pdf

 

[Pickman's model]

Besides a big motivation for the syrian/IS jihad came from atrocities by assad who until very recently the west wanted rid of.

You're in the right track but you're badly mistaken if you think that ISIS would stop doing what they're doing if the state/s stopped being at war. Especially if you think of the fact that countries such as indonesia and the phillipines with very little to do with 'the war on terror' have significant problems with jihadi groups

david cameron said on the today programme his position that assad should depart immediately.

 

[Pickman's model]

Today prog reported this then withdrew it...

the media hokey-cokey

 

[teqniq]

Any chance you or someone could copy and paste the text of that piece so I don't have to click on Daesh propaganda?

That's not the original, it's a webpage capture site.

 

[existentialist]

By the way I have read a bit of stuff by jihadi loons so I pretty much know the sort of thing it will be, extensive quoting from religious texts and banging on about 'Dawlah' referring to isis

You've nailed it pretty accurately. I am not at all au fait with this kind of posturing, so the liberal scattering of Arabic religious terminology had very little significance for me, beyond looking just like the same kind of cultish babblespeak one gets used to reading from the likes of the Moonies and Scientology.

With the exception, I suppose, that neither of those operates insurgent armies that commit widespread atrocities.

 

[ViolentPanda]

While I take the point, isn't there an element here where mad beliefs are normalised by Having others sharing them? The stuff ISIS believe is bonkers.

There's this assumption that ISIS is comprised entirely of religious maniacs with "mad beliefs". I'm not so sure that part of that isn't a social veneer stuck over what is actually (for many of the western joiners) fairly secular social alienation - people claiming to be wholeheartedly in support of the Caliphate and shari'a etc because it's what the identity group they've joined does. Most people, even those within such environments, are able to intellectually separate what they profess to believe from what they actually believe.
As for the beliefs being "bonkers", from our perspective, of course they are! From the perspective of the fundamentalists punting those beliefs though, they're a common-sense reaction to outside stimuli, and incorporate one of the oldest unifying factors in the book - the naming of an external enemy upon whom everything and anything can be blamed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

My point being that if you believe it as an individual you are pathologised for it.

As is often the case, there was quite a bit of disagreement among psychiatrists as to which of Breivik's beliefs constituted some kind of pathological problem. I would argue the same about these attackers and their beliefs. Despite all the good and right attempts to understand radicalisation, like Breivik, I think it is right to remember that at heart, these are sad fucks. These are pathetic individuals with quite wrongheaded beliefs.

It's very convenient and way too easy to write an ideological movement off in such terms. Most of the time such arrogance has a price.

 

[gimesumtruf]

THE thing that seems odd is, if you take out religion and madness ( which you can't ), what cause do these blokes terrorise for?

Could it be we have a case to answer but never want to address it?

To my way of thinking, for too long we have treated other nations without respect and as pawns, now nations are waking, people (including our own ) are waking to the arrogance of our/their governments. Can we be pushed into dishing out more murder and mayhem, of course we can, we/they are masters of it.
But who really cares, who gets out of their armchair, very few, except for those that see money can be made, or those that smell cordite up close.

When torture was justified or brushed off by the west, I knew right then that it will take something special to stop the slow slide into all out war.

 

[Pickman's model]

THE thing that seems odd is, if you take out religion and madness

yeh. so everyone who disagrees with us is clearly irrational and possibly mentally ill. right.

 

[butchersapron]

THE thing that seems odd is, if you take out religion and madness ( which you can't ), what cause do these blokes terrorise for?

Could it be we have a case to answer but never want to address it?

To my way of thinking, for too long we have treated other nations without respect and as pawns, now nations are waking, people (including our own ) are waking to the arrogance of our/their governments. Can we be pushed into dishing out more murder and mayhem, of course we can, we/they are masters of it.
But who really cares, who gets out of their armchair, very few, except for those that see money can be made, or those that smell cordite up close.

When torture was justified or brushed off by the west, I knew right then that it will take something special to stop the slow slide into all out war.

Among many other gems from you on one of the other ISIS threads:

IS is here and they hates us.
Britain should be worried about the people who are staying not the people who are going out to IS.

I don't trust the muslim who are here, sorry but if they follow islam then I cannot trust.
I can't see any of them standing up to their imam, either now, or were I to be got at in some way.
The older I get the less I want anything to do with people of religion. Enough of religious mumbo jumbo and please, in no way let it be used for killing.
I want my government to get tough on some of these detestable rules. Take your horrid rules from the bible, koran, scriptures or lose your churches and mosques, plenty of homeless who can use them. My state comes first, so naff off.

 

[mauvais]

Could it be we have a case to answer but never want to address it?

To my way of thinking, for too long we have treated other nations without respect and as pawns, now nations are waking, people (including our own ) are waking to the arrogance of our/their governments.

No. It's nonsense. There's a great deal of injustice that we have the ability to reduce, and it's without doubt an enabler and multiplier of terrorism. But to look at a terrorist attack and then turn to navel gazing and the idea that it's all our own avoidable fault is laughable.

Let me ask you this. At what point exactly in the rebalancing of world affairs would you feel it's an unreasonable question - that there's now sufficiently equitable treatment of people the world over to never excuse terrorism?

 

[bimble]

There's this assumption that ISIS is comprised entirely of religious maniacs with "mad beliefs". I'm not so sure that part of that isn't a social veneer stuck over what is actually (for many of the western joiners) fairly secular social alienation - people claiming to be wholeheartedly in support of the Caliphate and shari'a etc because it's what the identity group they've joined does.

yep. "Marc Sageman, a former CIA operation officer with the Afghan mujahidin in the late 1980s, and now an academic and counter-terrorism consultant to the US and other governments, similarly finds that ‘a lack of religious literacy and education appears to be a common feature among those that are drawn to [terrorist] groups.’ ‘At the time they joined jihad’, Sageman observes, ‘terrorists were not very religious. They only became religious once they joined the jihad.’
&
'What drew the likes of Ifthekar Jaman, Sahra Ali Mehenni and Kreshnik Berisha to Syria was, to begin with at least, neither politics nor religion. Rather it was a search for something a lot less definable: for identity, for meaning, for belongingness, for respect. Insofar as they are alienated, theirs is a much more existential form of alienation.'

 

[existentialist]

THE thing that seems odd is, if you take out religion and madness ( which you can't ), what cause do these blokes terrorise for?

And isn't that the thing? We just don't know.

I used to think I knew, then I remember reading something about life in Palestine, and realised that, if I were in a situation like that (which could just as easily apply to Syria, or Iraq, or...), I might well be just so fucking angry that I wanted to hit things and hurt people.

And even that probably doesn't come near even a slight understanding of what is going on.

One thing that does seem to emerge is that the kind of people who get caught up in this stuff - the footsoldiers, if you will - aren't really particularly religiously motivated, or especially idealistic (though they may claim those as after-the-fact justifications for what they are doing), but lost. For whatever reason, they have lost, or never had, a "place" in society. Along comes something like ISIS, al Quaeda, or an intifada, and all of a sudden, there's a cause they can join, something to give their life meaning, even if it means a very much shorter life.

I suspect, more than any other reason, that's why people like this - overwhelmingly young, disenfranchised men - end up committing atrocities, as the pawns of far more cynical and manipulative agencies.

Come to that, it's not a great deal different from the way economic conscription often works for Western militaries, too.

 

[pieandmashfirm]

 

[Idris2002]

Michael Stone is pretty much not the full shilling - but you couldn't reduce his crimes, or those of his fellow loyalists to mere individual psychosis.

Also, maybe we should take the M'Naughten rules into account when we're thinking about the overlap between terror, politics and mental illness:

M'Naghten rules - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(I see from the link that it comes from an attempted assasination of PM Peel, which resulted in the killing of an entirely different person).

 

[existentialist]

I'm at work, on a PC with no sound.

But everything about that clip - from the name of the poster (on YouTube) to the phrasing of the title and description - just screams "conspiraloon" at me. I shall be interested to listen to it when I get home and find out if I am right.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm at work, on a PC with no sound.

But everything about that clip - from the name of the poster (on YouTube) to the phrasing of the title and description - just screams "conspiraloon" at me. I shall be interested to listen to it when I get home and find out if I am right.

googling yer man's name - and taking the name of the poster into account - i think we can safely say conspiraloon without wasting precious minutes listening to it.

 

[8115]

Why do people keep mentioning mental illness and in particular psychosis wrt Islamic terrorists? I find it very offensive.

 

[mauvais]

I'm at work, on a PC with no sound.

But everything about that clip - from the name of the poster (on YouTube) to the phrasing of the title and description - just screams "conspiraloon" at me. I shall be interested to listen to it when I get home and find out if I am right.

I wouldn't hold your breath if I were you. It's a very long version of a similar sentiment to the post above - that we (actually the US/Israel/French imperialism) are to blame for it all, and yes, it features the words "conspiracy theorists".

 

[8den]

Who and why? I rarely waste time on RT

 

[gentlegreen]

Why do people keep mentioning mental illness and in particular psychosis wrt Islamic terrorists? I find it very offensive.

Maybe not organic ... though by all accounts ISIS use tonnes of amphetamines - as did the Nazis.
It takes a bit of getting your head around people volunteering to commit mass murder and then suicide.