Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions

[weltweit]

the end of the freedom of movement within the EU methinks

Or perhaps stronger borders at its edges.

 

[shifting gears]

i don't particularly like goldenecitrone. but you should take a long hard look at yourself over the way you've posted on this thread, perhaps your unfinest hour. you can tell a lot about someone from how they respond to adversity, and you've been very unpleasant, often utterly unneccessarily, to people who have offered no offence.

Bollocks. You consistently act like a spoilt little brat on here with axes to grind left, right, and centre, so fuck you with your holier than thou shite. My reaction was borne of genuine shock, despair, personal association with both the city and people who live there, so fuck right off. I've re-read my posts and I stand by every word. Those who come across all 'I know better than thee' amid the immediate aftermath of these kind of events should know better - we're all scrambling around doing our best to know what's happening on the ground. It's not the time for one-upmanship.

So as to the above - piss off.

 

[Casually Red]

I read this article which suggests that views on ISIS in the House of Saud are mixed and argues ISIS are a threat to them. Written by a former spook.

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

Well yes it mentions caution in their dealings with Daesh , but the very same mixed feelings were there with Al Q proper . They were no bar to actively sponsoring them either . And ultimately the article agrees with the point I made . That the KSA itself is the well spring of the ideology of hate and medeival backwardness that spawns these groups in the first place .

Eta

Good article here on why Saudi sponsorship of these groups in post war Iraq was seen by the US as a lesser evil than Syria, Iran Hezbollah etc . And how they might play a role in US interests as well as the Saudis. From 2007 .

The Redirection - The New Yorker

 

[Citizen66]

But as Butchers pointed out earlier, ISIS have control over oil wells so are self funded, and Saudi were funding the Free Syrian Army (rebels, remember them?) who aren't ISIS. If I've got that right.

 

[existentialist]

Or perhaps stronger borders at its edges.

There is a bit of a snag with that, as you may have noticed from the stream of refugees apparently able to enter Europe in considerable numbers via its southern coastline, itself not a huge (although dangerous) journey from many of the places people are trying to escape. I'm assuming you haven't missed the reports of various people arriving in sinking boats?

In many cases, quite a few of the land borders at the eastern edge are also somewhat remote and tricky to police, so I suspect "stronger borders at its edges" will have to remain the province of wishful thinkers and politicians offering apparently-easy solutions.

 

[8den]

I've asked Sas what he thinks the Saudi opinion would be of the Paris attacks if such things resulted in boots on the ground in Syria . I think it's obvious they'd see a silver lining or 2 . Putting it mildly . That yet again the end result of a terrorist outrage, committed by people who are ideologically close to the house of Saud , is the removal of regional enemy by western forces .

It's co mon knowledge the Saudis have been directly sponsoring these kinds of groups for decades now. Are you seriously goi g to dispute that ? If so could you tell us when the Saudis stopped supporting Al Qaeda ? Was it before or after the Pakistanis stopped harbouring bin laden ?

I think it's disingenuous to say the "Saudis" much better to say degrees of support from elements within Saudi Arabia.

 

[J Ed]

Exploiting Emotions About Paris to Blame Snowden, Distract from Actual Culprits Who Empowered ISIS

 

[laptop]

I read this article which suggests that views on ISIS in the House of Saud are mixed and argues ISIS are a threat to them. Written by a former spook.

You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia

Thanks for that.

ISIS' real target must be the Hijaz -- the seizure of Mecca and Medina -- and the legitimacy that this will confer on ISIS as the new Emirs of Arabia.

It concludes that Wahabi / Saudi support for Daesh inevitably leads to the destruction of the House of Saud...

 

[Casually Red]

I think it's disingenuous to say the "Saudis" much better to say degrees of support from elements within Saudi Arabia.

Ok then, specifically the Saudi government , royal family and it's military intelligence services . And not some random Saudi bloke down the local camel racing track .

 

[Casually Red]

Thanks for that.



It concludes that Wahabi / Saudi support for Daesh inevitably leads to the destruction of the House of Saud...

If they fail to control the Frankenstein monster they created . Which is the important bit . They seem to believe they can control it . Erdogan seems to believe that too .

 

[kebabking]

Or perhaps stronger borders at its edges.

they might talk about that, but the reality of that is the political acceptance that, for example, the French border is a beach in Greece from which you can see Turkey, or a forest in Romania, or a mountain range in Bulgaria. not, i would think, attractive propositions for national politicians who's number one electoral requirement is to be seen to tighten up security...

while a solid border would be no bad thing, a single hurdle is just that, a single hurdle - it only takes one smuggler with an arrangement with the local border guard commander and that border no longer exists. migrants/refugees are reportedly paying smugglers £1500 each to cross the Turkish-Greek border - put a lorry full together and thats a lot of bribe money, especially if you can produce it 3, 4, 10 times a week. what is required is defence in depth - if you want security, you have to make every transaction a border: everytime you buy petrol, or a train ticket, or drive on a toll road, or buy a parking ticket, you have to provide your ID to system that can tell if your ID is fake. that is both arse-clenchingly expensive and politically unaceptable. then you need massively intrusive communications intelligence gathering systems to monitor those inside Europe, and a large, heavily armed police force to respond when the above doesn't catch them in the preperation.

you'd also have to have a very strict immigration policy - in effect, sit in a camp on the border until you can prove not just your identity, but your past. in that situation, you'd have about a million people sleeping in secured camps on Europes borders tonight, and most of them with no hope of ever moving out of them.

genuinely strong borders are a realistic asperation for an Island like the UK or Iceland, but for countries on the continent, where, if you wanted to, you could walk from Chechnya to Paris, they just aren't politically acceptable.

 

[8den]

Ok then, specifically the Saudi government , royal family and it's military intelligence services . And not some random Saudi bloke down the local camel racing track .

If you think the entire Saudi government is supporting ISIS then the compendium of crazy conspiracy theories is where you belong.

 

[Citizen66]

Thanks for that.

It concludes that Wahabi / Saudi support for Daesh inevitably leads to the destruction of the House of Saud...

which I don't agree with. Going on balance of probabilities/power.

 

[Casually Red]

Ok then which bits of the Saudi government are opposed to supporting these takfiri groups ? And how has that opposition ever manifested itself ? Who doesn't support them within the Saudi ruling elite ?

 

[laptop]

If they fail to control the Frankenstein monster they created . Which is the important bit . They seem to believe they can control it . Erdogan seems to believe that too .

Read the article. Read it again. Understand the complexity and contradictions and the history.

 

[J Ed]

Ok then which bits of the Saudi government are opposed to supporting these takfiri groups ?

The ones sending weapons to the groups fighting ISIS for a start?

 

[Pickman's model]

I coukdnt give a flying fuck about your opinion about the shit on my shoe

you think you were justified in posting that? way to go big guy.

 

[brogdale]

Have to say that when Hollande closed the borders on Friday night I immediately thought of last week's NS article on the disintegration of the EU by Simms & Less (obviously written before 13/11/12). This is a small excerpt of the piece, but focuses on the potentially crucial role of French political dynamics within the process. Might need a thread of its own this sort of thing?

So here is what could happen, in what is an apocalyptic but perfectly plausible sequence of events.

In 2016 or early 2017, Geert Wilders’s Party for Freedom wins the Dutch parliamentary elections and leads an overtly rejectionist coalition. Sensing the threat, Germany unilaterally “grants” Britain a new deal on membership, including curbs on benefits for EU immigrants, which, in the final analysis, do not matter that much to Berlin. There is no broader discussion about this around the EU, and France, which opposes concessions for Britain, is marginalised. Britain votes to stay in (just, thanks to the Celtic vote) on the basis of the new deal. But matters do not end there.

In an increasingly radicalised atmosphere, caused mainly by the refugee crisis, Marine Le Pen wins the French presidential election in April 2017 and demands a comparable package of concessions, this time on things that really do matter to Germany, such as French membership of the eurozone, plus much tougher restrictions on immigration – all on pain of secession.

Fearing a domino effect around the EU, Germany refuses. This triggers France’s exit, which critically destabilises the rest of the EU. The Netherlands is the next to go. Within weeks, most other states announce their departure, including Britain, which never got to implement its new deal, and by 2018 the EU is all but dead. For the UK the only silver lining is that Scotland remains in, partly because the option of “independence” within the EU has disappeared, and partly in order to seek shelter amid the fallout from the collapse of the European project. With the passing of the EU, the UK remains the only modern example in history of a successful, multinational parliamentary union.

 

[Casually Red]

The ones sending weapons to the groups fighting ISIS for a start?

Such as Al Nusra ?

Turkey helps both Daesh and the other Takfiris as well . It doesn't mean they want them to destroy each other . Or even mind them killing each other .The point is to destroy Syria while they're at it . Which is the primary purpose of assisting all such groups . Of which dash is only the most notorious, this time round . Yesterday it was Al Qaeda . They're cut from the same cloth and so are the Saudis .

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I can think of at least one important reason why Breivik shouldn't be included - because he displays the sorts of psychoses and neuroses that render his crimes not as terrorism - i.e. an attempt to change politics through violence, but as artefacts of his disordered personality. There's been a reasonable volume of research (a readable account is Robert Pape's "Dying to Win") on the psychological state of "suicide terrorists" (Pape does a reasonably in-depth study of the histories of successful "martyrs" and the psychology of failed "martyrs") that shows that overwhelmingly "suicide terrorists" and their non-martyr associates don't manifest psychoses and neuroses of the type or severity that Breivik did - they're mostly psychologically "normal" .

While I take the point, isn't there an element here where mad beliefs are normalised by Having others sharing them? The stuff ISIS believe is bonkers.

 

[Casually Red]

While I take the point, isn't there an element here where mad beliefs are normalised by Having others sharing them? The stuff ISIS believe is bonkers.

Not believing a lot of it could see you jailed and publicly lashed in KSA . People aren't born with this madness, they're indoctrinated with it . And in Saudi it's the law, pretty much .

 

[J Ed]

Coverage of French retaliatory bombing of Raqqa on the Syrian Civil War subreddit

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Not believing a lot of it could see you jailed and publicly lashed in KSA . People aren't born with this madness, they're indoctrinated with it . And in Saudi it's the law, pretty much .

My point being that if you believe it as an individual you are pathologised for it.

As is often the case, there was quite a bit of disagreement among psychiatrists as to which of Breivik's beliefs constituted some kind of pathological problem. I would argue the same about these attackers and their beliefs. Despite all the good and right attempts to understand radicalisation, like Breivik, I think it is right to remember that at heart, these are sad fucks. These are pathetic individuals with quite wrongheaded beliefs.

 

[DownwardDog]

So .. 3 of the people who blew themselves to bits last night were from a place called Molenbeek in Belgium?
Looks lovely from google maps, perfectly tidy, no idea why anyone living there would feel, you know, atomised or go on the internet for a sense of meaning & identity / belonging in the world.

View attachment 79649

Yeah, that photo will be on one of the three days of the year when it's not pissing down in Brussels.

Molenbeek-Saint-Jean is one of municipalities on the front line of the war against the Flemification of Brussels. PS (when they are in power) have been concentrating Francophone immigrants from North Africa and the ME there for decades.

 

[Casually Red]

A very good address there in the aftermath of the attacks on both Paris and Beiruit, over 40 dead, which have come from the same source. Nasrallah calls for no sectarian strife and warns against painting entire groups of people with the one brush due to the actions of a small minority of crazed extremists . I hope people in both Lebanon and Europe take heed of these wise words.

 

[8den]

A very good address there in the aftermath of the attacks on both Paris and Beiruit, over 40 dead, which have come from the same source. Nasrallah calls for no sectarian strife and warns against painting entire groups of people with the one brush due to the actions of a small minority of crazed extremists . I hope people in both Lebanon and Europe take heed of these wise words.

Such as suggesting the entire Saudi govt support terrorists?

 

[Casually Red]

Such as suggesting the entire Saudi govt support terrorists?

You've been asked to identify which branches or individuals within the Saudi government don't support terrorism . And how that opposition has manifested itself . You've failed to do so so I'll ask you again .

Personally I'd be very glad to hear of such a development and I'll be all ears as to who these enlightened types are .

 

[butchersapron]

A very good address there in the aftermath of the attacks on both Paris and Beiruit, over 40 dead, which have come from the same source. Nasrallah calls for no sectarian strife and warns against painting entire groups of people with the one brush due to the actions of a small minority of crazed extremists . I hope people in both Lebanon and Europe take heed of these wise words.

That last part is exactly what you do with syrians who don't want to live under the assad dictatorship - the one whose actions have helped (by design) ISIS and other islamists. You identify all those non islamist or anti-dictatorship syrians as murderous islamists in the same manner as the worst blood soaked takfiri. So yeah, heed your own words.

 

[AverageJoe]

Oh dear. Shit just got real.

 

[Citizen66]

A very good address there in the aftermath of the attacks on both Paris and Beiruit, over 40 dead, which have come from the same source. Nasrallah calls for no sectarian strife and warns against painting entire groups of people with the one brush due to the actions of a small minority of crazed extremists . I hope people in both Lebanon and Europe take heed of these wise words.

"That last part is exactly what you do with syrians who don't want to live under the assad dictatorship - the one whose actions have helped (by design) ISIS and other islamists. You identify all those non islamist or anti-dictatorship syrians as murderous islamists in the same manner as the worst blood soaked takfiri. So yeah, heed your own words."