Bernie Gunther
Fundamentalist Druid
Basically a derail.
Many dead in coordinated Paris shootings and explosions
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Basically a derail.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
I've gone on to cite four other attacks off the top of my head were the IRA deliberately targeted civilians
maomao
普費斯
Let's get back to the real subject. What danny la rouge thinks of The Wire so far.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I'd describe at as a sectarian war crime , and always have done. A school friend of mines father was on that bus . And they were returning from a factory and not a bakery .
Btw it's looking quite likely now the reason there was no arrests for it was that some British agents were involved in it .
Ax^
Silly Rabbit
cantsin
Well-Known Member
Don't think this is the place for another IRA debate tbh, huge subject of its own, +! don't think it's useful / relevant for them to be even bought up in this thread - ISIS etc approach to civilian life just not comparable to RAs
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
You basically are the Kevin Bacon of the troubles.
So you'll agree there are examples of IRA specifically targeting civilians.
Great we can get back on topic now.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I think you've just pulled it out of your arse .
The Birmingham bombings, which killed as many Irish as English, are widely acknowledged to have been a blunder. Teebane targeted workers at a British army base who wee building fortifications . Kingsmills was a localised sectarian war crime that the IRA never claimed, and was definitely not a policy . And as regards Newtonhamilton despite living in the general area it's in I've never heard of any massive atrocity there so I'm just assuming you've made one up in a bout of hysteria .
The Provos planted literally thousands of bombs over a period of 27 years . The vast , overwhelming majority of them never killed any civilians . Indiscriminate slaughter of civilians was never their policy . And had it been their own community would never have supported them . Simple as that .
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
There is a way to have everyone on the grid. ID cards. Produced on request, and essential for everything from cashing a prescription to buying a loaf of bread.
We don't really want to live that way though, do we? I certainly don't.
Hitchen's mentioned the capitulation to the IRA, and seemed to welcome it. If the message is out that terrorists can achieve their aims by killing people, kill enough and you will be invited to talks, it sets a dangerous precedent. It isn't a concern in this sitaution for two reasons, firstly, which of the murderous groups do you speak to, and secondly, their aim is total subjugation, they don't want to talk.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
The French have ID cards.
existentialist
Tired and unemotional
I imagine they are sternly in denial, and would insist to their last breath that their journalistic integrity is all that is needed to decide what is appropriate and what isn't
But I think we could be at risk of reading a bit too much intent into this. It's always been the tendency of newsgatherers to charge in, often without any regard for propriety, and hoover up stories, images, maybe even the occasional fact: all that has changed is that they can now do that in real time, beamed live to TV screens. So cameramen linger on corpses, and reporters extemporise ad nauseam, perhaps forgetting that there isn't a handy editing suite between their stream of consciousness and the public consciousness.
Some seem to make a bit of an effort - Sky is a bit of a byword for getting it wrong first time, and repeatedly revising the story as new speculations arrive, but the BBC manages a slightly steadier course (and then gets bitched at for it by not being first with the news).
As for the print media...well, I think that, certainly where the usual suspects are concerned, nothing is as important as shoehorning events into the preconceived narrative they're working to in any case.
8den
No I'm pretty sure that was 8ball...
Newtownhamilton indiscriminate machine gunning of an orange lodge.
I picked 4 examples off the top of my head. It says so much about your personality that you can find excuses to justify the murder of hundreds of people.
Ie that ones okay they were working on a base, oh let's make up a conspiracy theory about this one, et etc ad nauseum..
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
What capitulation to the IRA? And I don't think Daesh have any interest in talking to anyone.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Well I think it's pretty clear that the IRA never achieved a single one of their aims, and the talks saw the British side achieve basically every one of theirs . So he appears to be talking bollocks on that one .
The elephant in the room here is the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia , which is the swamp in which this takfiri disease festers . It needs to be thoroughly drained . The finance for the schools and mosques and preachers which spreads this backward, medievalist, hate filled brand throughout the Muslim and Arab world is overwhelmingly Saudi . The Daesh mentality and the Saudi mentality are almost inseperable . Saudi Arabia is the boil which needs to be lanced if this things ever going to be properly tackled . it's the root of this particular evil .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Please fuck off .
The shooting up of the orange lodge meeting happened in tullyvallen , not Newtonhamilton. It was the orange lodge frequented by the many members of the the Glenanne gang. The local security forces who most certainly did frequently engage in random sectarian slaughter , including no warning car bombings . Which massacred dozens of innocent civilians in Dublin Monaghan on one day alone . That hall was full of not merely Orangemen but RUC , UDR and Uvf members . Who themselves returned fire at their attackers . So you pulled it of your hole while perusing your years long vendetta against myself , which has ruined Many's the thread . Hopefully you'll have the common decency to desist with it on this thread .
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Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
They do, but you don't have to use it for general day to day living. I noticed over the years when camping in France, some sites wanted your home address and passport number, others only wanted payment. Ditto for hotels, some wanted the passport number etc, others didn't. I have a feeling that they should all have been collecting the details, but some didn't bother. I'll bet they do now.
Sasaferrato
Super Refuser!
On the other side, seen as an ally in a hostile region, and a major oil supplier with great influence in OPEC.
Whereas I certainly do not disagree with your analysis, I don't see the solution coming any time soon.
Edited to add: I seem to remember reading recently that their was a bit of internecine conflict within the house of Saud, is this likely to change anything?
A good point was made earlier about sectarian bombers, they had no wish to die. When you are dealing with people that welcome death, it is an impossible situation.
I would give it about 10/1 at the moment that there will be 'boots on the ground' in Syria. If there is another atrocity, particularly in the US or the UK, then those odds drop dramatically.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
yes, but by all accounts if you have dark skin you are very likely to be stopped and asked for ident.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I think I recall that paying for petrol in Spain with a card they also wanted ID. At least I think this happened to me once on the motorway.
agricola
a genuine importer of owls
That is certainly how they are advertised, but like the other "ally in a hostile region" over there one does wonder at times what it is that they actually do to earn such a title.
StoneRoad
heckling from the back!
or driving *a bit* too fast in a foreign registered car ... as happened to me.
showing passports etc just got us sent on our way with a minor telling off. (unlike the bloke in the BMW three cars in front who got a large onthespot fine and a handgun in the ear'ole).
btw this was just inland from the DDay beaches and less than 24hrs after a significant anniversary, so maybe not typical.
showing passports etc just got us sent on our way with a minor telling off. (unlike the bloke in the BMW three cars in front who got a large onthespot fine and a handgun in the ear'ole).
btw this was just inland from the DDay beaches and less than 24hrs after a significant anniversary, so maybe not typical.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Well as the kingdom of Saudi Arabia are quite desperate to have western boots on the ground in Syria , are..according to the recent wiki leaks saudi cables...personally terrified at the thought of President Assad remaining in power and seeking his revenge against them...what do you think the Saudis might think about these kind of attacks on western soil ? After all the emotional response they generate is pretty much the only thing possible that might actually result in boots on the ground .
When they wanted Saddam and his million man army gone...very coincidentally..a bunch of Saudi nutters flew some planes into the twin towers . Iraq got invaded . Iran and Syria seemed next on the list .
The western governments continue to insist President Assad is the root cause of Islamic state , which is utter bollocks . It's the Saudis . But if Islamic state continue to carry out these atrocities against westerners then the argument can be made for regime change once more . It was their beheading of westerners which led directly to western aircraft over syrian skies...which in reality were doing very little against daesh .
The recent Vienna conference has seen regime change go right off the agenda . These attacks strike me as a carefully timed response to that . The possibility of putting it back there if enough fear , outrage and emotion can be whipped up .
Azrael
circling Airstrip One
Yup, even the (now thankfully defunct) British scheme went a lot further.
Don't see how any level of ID could've stopped these murders, committed with illegal assault rifles and ordinance, smuggled in from God knows where.
Traditional law enforcement methods like border checks, surveillance and undercover informants might've -- the Bavarian police may have intercepted one of the gun runners -- but of course, many times, nothing will stop it.
A moment ago you were suggesting Saud was ultimately responsible through its funding of madrassas etc.
Now you imply Saud commissioned the attacks...
Has strong drink been taken?
2hats
Dust.
Blimey. It must really be the end times.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
I've asked Sas what he thinks the Saudi opinion would be of the Paris attacks if such things resulted in boots on the ground in Syria . I think it's obvious they'd see a silver lining or 2 . Putting it mildly . That yet again the end result of a terrorist outrage, committed by people who are ideologically close to the house of Saud , is the removal of regional enemy by western forces .
It's co mon knowledge the Saudis have been directly sponsoring these kinds of groups for decades now. Are you seriously goi g to dispute that ? If so could you tell us when the Saudis stopped supporting Al Qaeda ? Was it before or after the Pakistanis stopped harbouring bin laden ?
I read this article which suggests that views on ISIS in the House of Saud are mixed and argues ISIS are a threat to them. Written by a former spook.
You Can't Understand ISIS If You Don't Know the History of Wahhabism in Saudi Arabia
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