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Macron vs Erdoğan

gosub

gosub

~#
Clearly brewing.
Erdogen, ruling a country whose borders were defined with typical Ango French mischief making a hundred years ago, clearly has own ideas of spheres of ibfluence and other stuff.
Macron thinking in terms of France, OTAN, and EU has different perspective... and historically Cyprus shows limits of OTAN, what was Kissenger thinking?

Earlier this month Turkish Navy much to the consternation of the French escorted a ship into Libya.. Shortly thereafter the dynamics of what it is in effect complex proxy there changed.

Now the Turks have a survey ship in an area of the Med the Greeks like to think of as theres

Last year, Erdogen bought Russian missile systems incmpatable with NATO systems though that Itself is complicated... However I can't be the only one who remembers some of the stuff that's been through the channel recently.
 
gosub said:
Earlier this month Turkish Navy much to the consternation of the French escorted a ship into Libya.. Shortly thereafter the dynamics of what it is in effect complex proxy there changed.
Click to expand...

There have been numerous incidents so I dont know which one you mean.

The dynamics of the Libya conflict have changed a lot over quite a long period of time now - Haftars assault on Tripoli quickly turned into a classic Libya stalemate for ages and the GNA eventually gained the upper hand over Haftars forces in part due to the use of Turkish drones. That was after Turkey announced it was stepping up its actions in December 2019 and earlier this year Haftars forces had to retreat after losing their main airport base int he west, and some Russian support pulled out. Since then forces from both sides have amassed in the vicinity of Sirte, but there hasnt been much actual fighting. We dont get the complete picture either, since some of the withdrawal may have related to a deal between Turkey and Russia that worked as far as the Tripoli situation but may have subsequently broken down over control of areas important for oil production and distribution.

The proxy situation is certainly complex, and details make it impossible for the likes of the BBC to report it with much added analysis. Because the GNA is UN-backed but France and other back Haftar so its really awkward to report through a lense that has a pretty fixed propaganda interpretation of which countries and agencies are supposed to 'be the good guys'.

So we just end up with paragraphs like this one, without further comment.

France is also at odds with Turkey over the crisis in Libya. Turkey has sent military support to the UN-recognised government in Tripoli, while France, Russia, Egypt and the United Arab Emirates support the forces of Gen Khalifa Haftar. Russia and the UAE are Gen Haftar's main arms suppliers.
Click to expand...

www.bbc.co.uk

France sends jets and ships to tense east Mediterranean

The French military deployment comes amid Greek-Turkish tension over oil and gas exploration.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
elbows said:
There have been numerous incidents so I dont know which one you mean.

The dynamics of the Libya conflict have changed a lot over quite a long period of time now - Haftars assault on Tripoli quickly turned into a classic Libya stalemate for ages and the GNA eventually gained the upper hand over Haftars forces in part due to the use of Turkish drones. That was after Turkey announced it was stepping up its actions in December 2019 and earlier this year Haftars forces had to retreat after losing their main airport base int he west, and some Russian support pulled out. Since then forces from both sides have amassed in the vicinity of Sirte, but there hasnt been much actual fighting. We dont get the complete picture either, since some of the withdrawal may have related to a deal between Turkey and Russia that worked as far as the Tripoli situation but may have subsequently broken down over control of areas important for oil production and distribution.

The proxy situation is certainly complex, and details make it impossible for the likes of the BBC to report it with much added analysis. Because the GNA is UN-backed but France and other back Haftar so its really awkward to report through a lense that has a pretty fixed propaganda interpretation of which countries and agencies are supposed to 'be the good guys'.

So we just end up with paragraphs like this one, without further comment.



www.bbc.co.uk

France sends jets and ships to tense east Mediterranean

The French military deployment comes amid Greek-Turkish tension over oil and gas exploration.
www.bbc.co.uk
Click to expand...
www.euractiv.com

NATO opens probe into France-Turkey naval incident in Mediterranean

NATO is investigating an incident in the Eastern Mediterranean in which France says Turkish frigates were "extremely aggressive" towards a French navy vessel participating in a NATO mission in the Mediterranean, Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg said on Thursday (18 June).
www.euractiv.com www.euractiv.com
 
1974 has already proven to Turkey that supposed solidarity of the Western powers is all bluster, no bite.

Personally I can't imagine France or any other EU member wading in with actual military force to counteract any sort of Turkish incursion of Greek (or Cypriot) waters. And more to the point, I'm fairly sure the Turkish government/army are also fairly confident that they can get away with it too. They'll do the whole "send thousands of refugees to the border" thing again too, no doubt about it, to tie the Greek state down while they take what they want. The cards are stacked in Turkey's favour, should this escalate.
 
ahvalnews.com

Erdoğan risks much in East Med dispute | Ahval

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan appears willing to sacrifice a lot on the altar of his own personal ambitions and in the context of a public opinion trained over the past few years in nationalist maximalism. He may not realise it, but the head-on collision he appears to be courting will...
ahvalnews.com ahvalnews.com
 
An interesting claim - I’ve no idea whether it’s true.

www.ekathimerini.com

Die Welt claims Erdogan asked his generals to sink a Greek ship | eKathimerini.com

The German newspaper Die Welt claimed in a report on Tuesday that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan wanted to provoke a military incident with Greece in the Eastern Mediterranean in order to survive politically.
www.ekathimerini.com www.ekathimerini.com
The German newspaper Die Welt claimed in a report on Tuesday that Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan wanted to provoke a military incident with Greece in the Eastern Mediterranean in order to survive politically.

The report, entitled “Erdogan’s calculated war,” said that “if it depended on the Turkish President, his navy would have sunk a Greek ship in the Mediterranean a long time ago.”
Click to expand...
More specifically, the paper said, citing Turkish military sources, Erdogan had asked Turkey generals a few days ago to sink a Greek ship and that they should do so securing that no one is killed in the process.

When the generals refused, someone else suggested shooting down a Greek fighter, and the pilot could use the launch pad to save himself. But Turkish generals again refused.
Click to expand...
 
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