Lost Prophets...

[farmerbarleymow]

Broadmoor is weirdly sited in an expensively leafy part of Berkshire (I assume before it became desirable). Every Monday morning they test the escape alarm. It sounds like an air raid siren. It's kind of creepy on the rare occasions it goes off at other times.

Is Wakefield actually *in* Wakefield?

Yes, the postcode is WF2 9AG if you want to check it out. Round the corner from Wakefield Westgate station.

 

[Buckaroo]

When cases like this come to light I think the only thing people not involved in the case can do is maintain dignity and try to help people that might be at risk. All these wish fulfilling statements about extreme violence are as well as being impractical and being on all kinds of dodgy ground ethically are just horribly undignified. When we start saying these things the integrity of our humanity and our dignity starts to erode just a little bit. And when we start acting on them were all fucked.

Bang on. Thanks for that. We all need reminding.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I think your right, that issues like this horrible as they are need to be examined and understood. There is no way we can try to prevent things like this happening if we don't have an understanding of why and how these things happen. Coming to that understanding is going to be grim as fuck but it needs doing.

How can we protect kids or anyone from something we don't understand? We can't. if we don't make attempts to understand and recognise when, where and how children are at risk of abuse then we are all at risk. Kids will get hurt, essentially that means were all going to suffer somewhere down the line because of it. That infliction of trauma will have massive repercussions; obviously on the individual but then possibly on the community and on society as a whole.

Damn nearly everyone in jail right now will have suffered abuse at some point in there childhood, they have been traumatised and then go on to traumatise other people, there's a transmission of trauma that seems to spread like a disease does. Most people experience trauma and after can go about their business without hurting anyone, but there's a significant minority that don't and that is a risk.

the effects of trauma especially from childhood are potentially massively devastating to the individual and to society as a whole. We must take child abuse as a threat to our survival as a species, because it is.

To respond to that threat we need to recognise and understand it, we can't hide from it. It will be horrible to look at but shying away from that confrontation will hurt our kids and it will ultimately hurt us all.

I think it is brave and wise to look at all the grim details and get that knowledge. Respect

I thibk there's also something about simply getting it out in the open. I think it's partly because abuse isn't talked about that openly that people don't realise just how common an experience it is. And sweeping it under the carpet is partt of what helps it keep happening and is a barrier to seeking and receiving help.

 

[Part 2]

Can I just make the point that people who have been sexually abused can and do go on to lead 'normal' lives.

I'm in no way excusing what has gone on here but some of the comments about victims lose sight of this.

 

[Citizen66]

Poor H, he always struck me as a decent bloke despite the fact Steps music is quite shite

Imagine his future interactions.

-what do you do?

oh I'm like an ex pop star.

-What's your name?

Oh, you know, 'H'

-no, your real name?

Ian Watkins.

-YOU SHOULD HANG FOR WHAT YOUVE DONE BABY SHAGGING CUNT!!! 1!!

I said H!!! I said H!!!...

 

[Citizen66]

I think your right, that issues like this horrible as they are need to be examined and understood. There is no way we can try to prevent things like this happening if we don't have an understanding of why and how these things happen. Coming to that understanding is going to be grim as fuck but it needs doing.

How can we protect kids or anyone from something we don't understand? We can't. if we don't make attempts to understand and recognise when, where and how children are at risk of abuse then we are all at risk. Kids will get hurt, essentially that means were all going to suffer somewhere down the line because of it. That infliction of trauma will have massive repercussions; obviously on the individual but then possibly on the community and on society as a whole.

Damn nearly everyone in jail right now will have suffered abuse at some point in there childhood, they have been traumatised and then go on to traumatise other people, there's a transmission of trauma that seems to spread like a disease does. Most people experience trauma and after can go about their business without hurting anyone, but there's a significant minority that don't and that is a risk.

the effects of trauma especially from childhood are potentially massively devastating to the individual and to society as a whole. We must take child abuse as a threat to our survival as a species, because it is.

To respond to that threat we need to recognise and understand it, we can't hide from it. It will be horrible to look at but shying away from that confrontation will hurt our kids and it will ultimately hurt us all.

I think it is brave and wise to look at all the grim details and get that knowledge. Respect

I dunno. The details are grim. I wish I'd left it to my imagination tbh.

 

[8ball]

Breaking news - the stress was too much for him:

 

[Thimble Queen]

Can I just make the point that people who have been sexually abused can and do go on to lead 'normal' lives.

I'm in no way excusing what has gone on here but some of the comments about victims lose sight of this.

Others have made this comment on here too. But it's definitely worth making again. Just to say though it can take an awful lot of work and therapy to put right. And even seemingly 'normal' people can be really struggling on the inside but maybe not exhibit that externally...

 

[Grace Johnson]

I thibk there's also something about simply getting it out in the open. I think it's partly because abuse isn't talked about that openly that people don't realise just how common an experience it is. And sweeping it under the carpet is partt of what helps it keep happening and is a barrier to seeking and receiving help.

Yeah absolutely, hadn't thought of that but your spot on. The idea that abuse is something that should be hidden away means that if you've suffered your first thought is that this is something that should be hidden away. Which is like you say damaging on so many levels. Keeping it hidden hurts the individual and allows perpetrators to carry on. There really does need to be more of an awareness of just how prevalent and damaging abuse can be. All kinds of it as well, for children and adults. One thing that struck me when talking with survivors of horrific childhood sexual abuse was that they all said, the worst thing was the emotional abuse and general neglect that went along with it. Heartbreaking. There defiantly does need to be more awareness and understanding but personally have no idea how you could go about doing it on a wide scale...

 

[Thimble Queen]

Also because a person might, legitimately, worry that they won't be believed.

 

[Citizen66]

In a discussion about this (and other cases) with some friends, one person suggested that it's regrettable how demonized paedophiles have become, since this would tend to prevent them from coming forward and seeking treatment. However, I seem to recall reading a report that stated psychiatric treatment for paedophiles had a very low success rate, because a large number of offenders didn't see that they'd done anything wrong ...can anyone point me in the direction of some reputable research?

This Ian Watkins case is of course particularly troubling because of the baby-rape elements, which, as well as being nauseating to read about, are - I would think - completely unfathomable and incomprehensible to the general public. Do such crimes stem from a desire to plumb the depths of unacceptable behaviour, the shock value of what is forbidden by normal society?

I don't buy Watkins' defence that drug use caused him to commit these offences, but I can see how a lowering of inhibitions brought on by class As might lead him to enact his fantasies. But these would be fantasies he already had a predisposition towards - which returns us to the mystifying question of why someone would want to perform such depraved acts? Again, if anyone knows of any research that's been done in similar cases I'd be interested...do such offenders have a background of having been abused themselves as children?

Some have yeah. Paedophilia isn't a crime in itself, it's acting on the urges that is. There can never be any justification for it because it can never be consensual. It's always about abuse of power.

 

[Manter]

I thibk there's also something about simply getting it out in the open. I think it's partly because abuse isn't talked about that openly that people don't realise just how common an experience it is. And sweeping it under the carpet is partt of what helps it keep happening and is a barrier to seeking and receiving help.

I do agree that it is important to be open about abuse- that it happens, what the signs are, how you can report it, protect children etc- but I'm not sure my reading the details of what Watkins did to those children is necessary or moves that agenda forward. I read the first 2 pages, it didn't tell me how to spot or prevent abuse, it just made me feel very, very sick. What I haven't seen in any of the coverage is that constructive stuff or information.

 

[Grace Johnson]

Can I just make the point that people who have been sexually abused can and do go on to lead 'normal' lives.

I'm in no way excusing what has gone on here but some of the comments about victims lose sight of this.

Indeed.

 

[Grace Johnson]

I do agree that it is important to be open about abuse- that it happens, what the signs are, how you can report it, protect children etc- but I'm not sure my reading the details of what Watkins did to those children is necessary or moves that agenda forward. I read the first 2 pages, it didn't tell me how to spot or prevent abuse, it just made me feel very, very sick. What I haven't seen in any of the coverage is that constructive stuff or information.

Yeah you're right there. The media coverage of things like this is most of the time harmful for a lot of reasons. Especially when you have information in the public domain like that sentencing report. And that is kind of the point, when something like this happens there should be an attempt through the media, the criminal justice systems and ourselves to understand properly. That isn't being done at the moment mostly because of the reasons you highlighted.

That there is irresponsible and incompetent media coverage and just bare facts from the judiciary. That disparity leaves a void which is a head fuck. With no proper analysis or considered attempts at providing information the community is going to suffer.

 

[Thimble Queen]

I do agree that it is important to be open about abuse- that it happens, what the signs are, how you can report it, protect children etc- but I'm not sure my reading the details of what Watkins did to those children is necessary or moves that agenda forward. I read the first 2 pages, it didn't tell me how to spot or prevent abuse, it just made me feel very, very sick. What I haven't seen in any of the coverage is that constructive stuff or information.

I don't think it's an either or situation. Also the sentencing notes aren't designed for the purpose you describe. My point is that for me I think it's important not to look away. We do too much of that as a society already.

 

[Manter]

I don't think it's an either or situation. Also the sentencing notes aren't designed for the purpose you describe. My point is that for me I think it's important not to look away. We do too much of that as a society already.

Yeah, not sure I was clear.
-I know what the sentencing notes are for and that it's important that justice is public, both as a principle and for professionals in the field be they legal, therapeutic etc
-I think it's important that we are open that abuse happens and address it in society- I emphatically do not want to 'look away' if that infers ignoring, allowing or enabling abuse.

But I'm not sure me or any other lay person reading the details of the abuse actually helps anyone- society or the victims. If someone wants to, fair enough, but not reading them doesn't mean that you're turning your back on the victims, looking away etc. I am more than willing to read constructive material, however grim, if it helps me or society stop abuse, identify victims, etc... I'm not sure reading about where Watkins spat delivers that. But I'd strongly contest the suggestion that not wanting to expose myself to that sort of detail means I'm colluding in society turning a blind eye.

 

[trashpony]

Also this kind of abuse is depressingly common. I don't think anyone other than people involved in the judgement, the SW team and other professionals involved in the child's care, and the foster carers and/or adopters really need to know the minutiae.

There is a very fine line between ' in the public interest' and prurient IMO

 

[Thimble Queen]

Yeah, not sure I was clear.
-I know what the sentencing notes are for and that it's important that justice is public, both as a principle and for professionals in the field be they legal, therapeutic etc
-I think it's important that we are open that abuse happens and address it in society- I emphatically do not want to 'look away' if that infers ignoring, allowing or enabling abuse.

But I'm not sure me or any other lay person reading the details of the abuse actually helps anyone- society or the victims. If someone wants to, fair enough, but not reading them doesn't mean that you're turning your back on the victims, looking away etc. I am more than willing to read constructive material, however grim, if it helps me or society stop abuse, identify victims, etc... I'm not sure reading about where Watkins spat delivers that. But I'd strongly contest the suggestion that not wanting to expose myself to that sort of detail means I'm colluding in society turning a blind eye.

That's why I said for me.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

Anyone posted this yet?

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resources/JCO/Documents/Judgments/r-v-watkins-and-others.pdf

 

[Manter]

That's what the last 3 pages have been discussing..

 

[Delroy Booth]

Is Wakefield actually *in* Wakefield?

Yeah right in the middle of town, weirdly for such a high security prison.

It's a really horrible forebording presence in the town knowing it's probably the worst prison in the country for high profile inmates.

 

[Cheesypoof]

The problem with your proposal is that it doesn't stop offending, it merely stops penetration with a penis.

Of course, it also gives you a warm glow of vengeful self-righteousness.

you think folks would feel self righteous about someone being castrated for RAPING A BABY??? fuck off.

 

[joustmaster]

idiot

 

[Cheesypoof]

Your "logic" - let's cut the wedding tackle of padeo-rapists off - is consonant with those who propose amputation of limbs for theft, and mandatory death sentences for killers.

nah thats bollox. Baby rapists are a differnt few - as i explained earlier (but which was ignored about the need for gradation of paedophiles)

 

[Cheesypoof]

would you suggest castration for this paedophile? http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/female-paedophile-bluebird-tattooed-chest-2073661

didnt read that - i propose castration for BABY RAPISTS and if you think that is queer, well you are the fucked up one.

 

[bi0boy]

you think folks would feel self righteous about someone being castrated for RAPING A BABY??? fuck off.

I don't want the government castrating anyone thanks. If you can argue it's ok for baby rapists, someone else can argue it's ok for other people.

 

[Cheesypoof]

I'm quite shocked at the vengeful blood last in this and your other posts here. You're entitled to your view of course but if there's one thing we have broadly managed in Europe is to quell our thirst for physical punishment so this does disappoint me. Sorry.

As others have pointed out where do you draw the line? Amputating the hands of shoplifters?

i propose castration for baby rapists, that is all. There are MANY i have mercy for, but you have to have boundaries somewhere - baby rapists crosses the line. i think that is reasonable.

thats all.

 

[trashpony]

Yeah right in the middle of town, weirdly for such a high security prison.

It's a really horrible forebording presence in the town knowing it's probably the worst prison in the country for high profile inmates.

Monster Mansion

Are there alarms for escapees like there are for Broadmoor?

 

[goldenecitrone]

Where's the cut off point, though?

 

[joustmaster]

people fucking babies aren't doing it for sex.