Lost Prophets...

[Manter]

Seek help. Not rape babies

There is a serious question about where you'd go for help. In Germany there is a programme to help people who are feeling inappropriate urges (or there was) but what'd you do here?

Not suggesting that sicko looked for help, but I do wonder if society's (natural) revulsion has created a vacuum for people getting help and support to avoid escalation

 

[Frances Lengel]

This thread is in danger of disappearing up it's own arse with all this bullshit drug talk. Drugs didn't turn this guy into a paedo, but they probably did have a disinhibiting effect on him, and may have caused him to ramp up his behaviour. Drugs also probably played a part in enabling him to groom the two young women who were the mothers of the children he abused. Bottom line though, this guy was a paedo and IMO, he'd have been committing sexual offences against children with or without meth or any other substance.

E2a By the time I typed that, the debate had moved on anyway

 

[Big Gunz]

I reckon in times past a lot of the conscientious ones would have ended up in monasteries away from temptation. Maybe we need a modern secular equivalent.

Catholic church?

 

[Citizen66]

it's the answer, specific or no.

It's so broad as to render it meaningless.

 

[Bigfoot]

What does create a sexual desire for children?

Bugsy Malone

 

[19sixtysix]

There is a serious question about where you'd go for help. In Germany there is a programme to help people who are feeling inappropriate urges (or there was) but what'd you do here?

Not suggesting that sicko looked for help, but I do wonder if society's (natural) revulsion has created a vacuum for people getting help and support to avoid escalation

I think he may not have been one who could have been helped but I doubt they'll be much help in this country for that teenager who realises their desires.

 

[8ball]

Although (apparently) over the past decade there have been studies that also link it to brain structure and function. From the great god wiki.

I know you're aware that brain structure and function in humans are not unrelated to social environment.

 

[trashpony]

There is a serious question about where you'd go for help. In Germany there is a programme to help people who are feeling inappropriate urges (or there was) but what'd you do here?

Not suggesting that sicko looked for help, but I do wonder if society's (natural) revulsion has created a vacuum for people getting help and support to avoid escalation

We have Stop It Now in the UK

 

[butchersapron]

There is a serious question about where you'd go for help. In Germany there is a programme to help people who are feeling inappropriate urges (or there was) but what'd you do here?

Not suggesting that sicko looked for help, but I do wonder if society's (natural) revulsion has created a vacuum for people getting help and support to avoid escalation

Have you seen the German doco Outing. Doesn't really fill me with hope about where those who ask for help end up. Really depressing.

 

[cesare]

I know you're aware that brain structure and function in humans are not unrelated to social environment.

Yes, of course. But I found this interesting: "They report that their findings suggest that there are one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic. Evidence of familial transmittability "suggests, but does not prove that genetic factors are responsible" for the development of pedophilia"

 

[Buddy Bradley]

Stop It Now

I can only hear that in a Kenny Everett, Cupid Stunt voice.

 

[Favelado]

I hope we wrap this whole nature/nurture thing up today. It's about time someone had the last word on it.

 

[8ball]

Yes, of course. But I found this interesting: "They report that their findings suggest that there are one or more neurological characteristics present at birth that cause or increase the likelihood of being pedophilic. Evidence of familial transmittability "suggests, but does not prove that genetic factors are responsible" for the development of pedophilia"

Only looking at that snippet I can't say much, but that would also be compatible with research on psychopathy in that there may be genetic risk factors (rather than 'causes' as such).

 

[Frances Lengel]

I hope we wrap this whole nature/nurture thing up today. It's about time someone had the last word on it.

 

[Big Gunz]

Whoah, why did Bigfoot just get banned?

 

[ddraig]

trolling returner at a guess?
was it ninj again?

 

[butchersapron]

Yes

 

[Ranbay]

((((( H from Steps )))))

^ He's getting abuse on the facebooks

 

[ddraig]

bloody hell
e2a re ninj

 

[ViolentPanda]

Meth corrupts the soul. I'm not normally one to point the finger at drugs but I can't think of any other explanation.

Drugs weaken/remove the censor, they don't cause you to do things you had no prior proclivity for, in my experience.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well I guess you don't find them in a ready-made state to indulge in such horrors. You find people who for various reasons are going to come under your spell, easily exploitable and subject to your power. You rely on all sorts of relatively normal human emotions and forms of power play, and then take these to the extreme and go off in hideously dark directions.

We are unlikely to be able to explore these phenomenon in full via this case because of certain anonymity requirements designed to protect the victims.

It's a fairly common scenario in cases of child sexual abuse, that the abuser "grooms" the parent (it's a single mother the majority of the time) just as thoroughly as the child.

 

[Citizen66]

Drugs weaken/remove the censor, they don't cause you to do things you had no prior proclivity for, in my experience.

Well I was never attracted to hippy music before LSD.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was thinking about that this morning.... but surely they would be obliged to tell the kids?

After it MAY affect them in later life...? How can anyone know? They could grow up to be really fucked up and not know why..

Of course, if they did know, then they would definitely be fucked up by it

Not to mention his bandmates, and his own family and friends. He's destroyed loads of people's lives. Its horrific.

It's impossible to predict the future psychological effects on the victims.
We know from academic studies that even very young (infant) victims can retain some basic emotional memory of trauma, so it's entirely possible that they will have psychological difficulties in later life for which there is presumed to be no cause.
The usual way around this are legally-sealed early medical and social services records that are accessible only through court order, but that's rare, and is also dependent on good record-keeping by the responsible bodies - something that can't always be counted on.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They won't tell them till they are adults though, will they?

The usual procedure is you're informed when you "reach your majority", if there are any sealed records held on you, and given the choice of whether to access them or not. Prior to that, the only access is usually by "experts" (generally shrinks) via court order.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Growing up on the metal scene there were often rumours about Watkins and his liking for young fans

I can't help but wondering what must have happened to him to fuck him up so much that he's done this depraved fucked up stuff. He must be fundamentally damanaged to go this far. Normal, happy, well adjusted people don't do stuff like this.

Which begs the question: What is "normal, happy, well adjusted..." when it's at home? We tend to see the "faces" people present, but were never wholly sure what goes on behind their eyes.

There are many routes to this sort of psychopathic behaviour, too, and not just related to experiencing sexual trauma at an early age - as we're becoming aware, physical organic trauma to the brain as mild as a concussion may have effects on personality that may manifest as a reduction of empathy and an increase in aggression.
Add to that his alleged fondness for being off his face, and you introduce drug-induced personality amplification into the equation, and remove any self-restraint that might previously have existed. Once that's happened once, "under the influence" or not, the person is then more pre-disposed than before to re-offend.

Sadly, if he'd been busted for USI "back in the day", he'd likely have been scared enough to clean up his act enough that he'd never have plumbed these depths.

 

[ViolentPanda]

There is a serious question about where you'd go for help. In Germany there is a programme to help people who are feeling inappropriate urges (or there was) but what'd you do here?

Not suggesting that sicko looked for help, but I do wonder if society's (natural) revulsion has created a vacuum for people getting help and support to avoid escalation

Here "getting help" if you're a sex offender usually doesn't happen until you've been sent to prison. In the UK, as far as I'm currently aware, there are very few psycho-sexual therapists who treat people who "feel inappropriate urges" but have so far resisted acting on them.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Which begs the question: What is "normal, happy, well adjusted..." when it's at home? We tend to see the "faces" people present, but were never wholly sure what goes on behind their eyes.

I don't think it's particular one thing... it can be lots of things to different people but it's definately not normal to rape babies.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I don't think it's particular one thing... it can be lots of things to different people but it's definately not normal to rape babies.

Of course not!
I was just trying to make the point that we (i.e. people in general) tend to assume a cause that's fairly cut-and-dried (childhood sexual trauma on the part of the offender, for example), when the cause can sometimes be entirely different, and something that we wouldn't normally consider as having that kind of effect.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think it's particular one thing... it can be lots of things to different people but it's definately not normal to rape babies.

Yeah, there's a fuzzy line, and he's some way to one side of it. Like VP, I would suspect that he may be a clinical psychopath, tbh. I'd definitely be testing him for it - sure they will be.

 

[Thimble Queen]

Of course not!
I was just trying to make the point that we (i.e. people in general) tend to assume a cause that's fairly cut-and-dried (childhood sexual trauma on the part of the offender, for example), when the cause can sometimes be entirely different, and something that we wouldn't normally consider as having that kind of effect.

I'm quite wary of speculating on that type of stuff because as I'm sure you're aware there's a lot of people who have been abused that don't go on to abuse others. I just find it hard to believe that a person who has had a happy stable life can do stuff so far outside the norms of society, something must have gone wrong somewhere. Otherwise it's just too frightening.