London Student protests - Wed 8th Dec+ Thurs 9th

[gawkrodger]

I heard stories of EDL/far-right types intimidating protestors, yes.

hmm, something to keep an eye on then

 

[Steel Icarus]

I only just remembered - didn't this all start because the protest deviated from the agreed route ?

It's been said before - a lot of the protesters are angry because the yellow Tories have deviated from the agreed route.

Why shouldn't protesters go exactly where they want, anyway?

 

[belboid]

I only just remembered - didn't this all start because the protest deviated from the agreed route ?

no, it was because the Liberal Scum deviated from their agreed policy

 

[Tankus]

My shite from earlier without the extra added shite

Why dont we have a bit on honesty about our education system ?
Labour have pumped money into the system .........but in the decade from 2000/10 we have dropped from 7th to 27th in the worlds educational league tables .....standards have fallen as labour has gone from quality to bulk ..money is not the answer. (we now have no money anyway )

The real primary objective was to increase the school leaving age to reduce the numbers of unemployed young....... It was a ticking time bomb that has now gone off ...thats why labour instigated the brown review with cross party support. It was unsustainable .

The tory answer is exactly the same as the labour one ..just changing the billing source........ It is a delaying tactic ....... £30k debit's (but insn't debits bad ?) at the end of a lower value degree ,not suited to the job market , and lots of them vying for the same job, how long do you think that money is going to take to get repaid ? when they will take any job they can get?.....Some future government's problems and cost.


We have spent our childrens future and tax revenue yet to be collected................................. this is just the start.


If I had an answer I would go back to the 70's starting with O's and A's .........
vairable pass level based on percentages ...the bottom 40% of would fail (C-) only the very top level..... 5%would achieve an A
reduce student numbers to 100,000 (from 450,000) and make it free ...... Bite the bullet on the unemployed they exist anyway ...the numbers are just hidden from view
.

10-12-2010 15:43 #1302
Proper Tidy

Indeed, but his whole argument is contradictory and confused. He talks about youth unemployment hitting 41% but also says that we should 'accept unemployment', prevent working class people from pursuing an education that might just strengthen their position in the labour market, and have a situation where only the children of the rich can get graduate jobs. You're looking for polish when all there is is turd.

accept I mean ..a bit more honest ........unemployed is unemployed ...not a student studying for a degree in David Beckham A more level playing field can be created by going back to the original A level marking

10-12-2010 15:44 #1304
Proper Tidy

Who were the right on Marxists trots and revolutionary's in their youth ........all it takes is one sniff

No, they weren't. Your knowledge of the history of the Labour party is sadly lacking.

I was thinking of this ...... obviously a cut and paste somewhere from the right

THE STALINIST WING

Jack Straw, Foreign Secretary Former Broad Left president of the NUS; branded "a troublemaker" by the Foreign Office when, on an NUS trip to Chile, his "childish politicking" aimed at embarrassing his right-wing opponents, was "nearly disastrous" for Anglo-Chilean relations.

Charles Clarke, Secretary of State for Education Former Broad Left president of NUS; led demonstrations for higher student grants, and was, he admits, "a strong opponent of the foreign policy of the USA".

John Reid, Secretary of State for Health Former Communist and researcher for the Scottish Union of Students. Claimed he joined the CP because it was the only non-Trotskyist political group on campus when he was an undergraduate student at Stirling University.

Peter Mandelson, European Commissioner Former Communist and chairman of the British Youth Council. Led a BYC delegation to Cuba in the 1970s.

Trevor Phillips, chairman, Commission for Racial Equality Former Broad Left president of NUS, led sit-ins, went to Cuba with Mandelson's delegation.

Alan Johnson, Work and Pensions Secretary Says he was close to the Communist Party in his youth, and gets agitated if you suggest he might have been a Trot.

THE TROTSKYITE WING

Gordon Brown, Chancellor Showed political colours by choosing to do his PhD thesis on James Maxton, the leader of the rebel Independent Labour Party in the 1920s and 1930s. The ILP was accused by Stalin of being a Trotskyist front.

Alan Milburn, Labour's election planner. Before joining Labour Party in 1983, Milburn was the manager of a socialist bookshop in Newcastle, and a CND activist, described, by Roy Hattersley, as "incapable of writing an election manifesto without drawing the battle lines of the philosophical struggle".

Paul Boateng, Chief Secretary to the Treasury Former left-wing rebel. Once called on Labour Party to "have the guts to support workers who have the guts to fight Thatcher".

Denis MacShane, minister for Europe Former left-wing NUJ leader, arrested on picket lines in the 1970s, once alongside Arthur Scargill. Led the NUJ's biggest strike.

David Blunkett, Home Secretary Former leader of Sheffield City Council, which was known as "the socialist republic of South Yorkshire".

Margaret Hodge, Minister for Children Former leader of Islington Council where she had a bust of Lenin installed in the town hall. During her tenure, it became known as the "Socialist Republic of north London".

and the odd marxist or two ...Darling etc

 

[butchersapron]

edl were supposed to have done cleaning jobs on the Churchill statue..

 

[kabbes]

I only just remembered - didn't this all start because the protest deviated from the agreed route ?

I've been on two events in London over the years - most notably the Rock against Racism one in 1977 - I don't recall any problems at all.

And what of the police who were injured trying to prevent even more carnage. ?

Yes, a protest from 33 years ago is obviously directly comparable to one today.

Anyway, what of the police that were injured? Is there a direct correspondance between those that injured them and the people they injured in turn? Or did the police just lash out at whomever happened to be nearest?

Are you happy for your representatives to injure whomever happens to be nearest, just because they are in a bad mood? Are you happy that this should remain unchallenged, just because other things happened that day too?

 

[Steel Icarus]

I wish people would stop spouting Mail-esque rubbish about "degrees in David Beckham". The fees are going to affect every student who wants to do a degree, be it psychology, physics, accounting, economics, or Balinean nose-flute music. Talk of "Mickey Mouse" degrees is just a straw man, and not a very good one at that.

 

[butchersapron]

The fantastic thing is that the students are only the canaries.

 

[LLETSA]

Indeed, but his whole argument is contradictory and confused. He talks about youth unemployment hitting 41% but also says that we should 'accept unemployment', prevent working class people from pursuing an education that might just strengthen their position in the labour market, and have a situation where only the children of the rich can get graduate jobs. You're looking for polish when all there is is turd.

I know-I meant that his point is a relevant one not that he has any answer to the problem.

 

[gentlegreen]

It's been said before - a lot of the protesters are angry because the yellow Tories have deviated from the agreed route.

Why shouldn't protesters go exactly where they want, anyway?

Right up to the doors of Parliament ?

 

[Steel Icarus]

Right up to the doors of Parliament ?

Yes. It's our Parliament.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Right up to the doors of Parliament ?

If there is anywhere in the whole country that protesters should have the right to demand to go, it is right up to the doors of parliament.

 

[belboid]

Right up to the doors of Parliament ?

INTO parliament would obviously be better

 

[kabbes]

I must say, gentlegreen, you expect really depressingly low standards of behaviour from your official representatives. Even at best, you require them to behave no better than the nearest thug that happens to be in the vacinity.

Personally, I expect more of the people I am paying to represent good order.

 

[ymu]

I only just remembered - didn't this all start because the protest deviated from the agreed route ?

I've been on two events in London over the years - most notably the Rock against Racism one in 1977 - I don't recall any problems at all.

And what of the police who were injured trying to prevent even more carnage. ?

I don't think so, no. The agreed route was to the NUS vigil, I think - but few were intending to go to that anyway. The majority were always going to head for parliament.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't think so, no. The agreed route was to the NUS vigil, I think - but few were intending to go to that anyway. The majority were always going to head for parliament.

Fuck the agreed route. We do not protest with the permission of the state. We protest against the state. No individual protester has any duty to follow any agreed route.

 

[gunneradt]

I wish people would stop spouting Mail-esque rubbish about "degrees in David Beckham". The fees are going to affect every student who wants to do a degree, be it psychology, physics, accounting, economics, or Balinean nose-flute music. Talk of "Mickey Mouse" degrees is just a straw man, and not a very good one at that.

it's more mickey mouse polys not the degrees themselves

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Account from a 17 year old lass from Barnsley:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/sheffield/hi/people_and_places/newsid_9276000/9276699.stm

A good read for anybody pushing the police were just doing their job line; of course the police were just doing their job, which on this occasion was to criminalise dissent and intimidate future protest. The message is clear, only the timid, the cowed, the bought of, or the ineffective voices are legitimate. Anything with a bit of swagger, some confidence and independence, anything not for sale to the highest bidder, in short anything that might actually help to make a difference is out of bounds, yobbish, alien, criminal, maybe even terroristic...even if it's a frightened 17 year old girl.

Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

I comprehended what you were suggesting, you seem to think the party can change the leadership and a new leader could force their MPs to bring down the coalition, in theory with shitloads of ifs and buts that could happen.

Talking to local LibDem councillors and activists that's so unlikely that's in way off in cloud cuckoo land, as you appear to be.

FFS earlier you posted the suggestion that Coronation Street was going to loss out on ratings to the News Channels, I seriously suggest you try to get a grip on your imagination.

Thing is, do you really think that the constituency parties (all 500+ of them) are going to sit still and say nothing while the antics of the parliamentary LD party put the LD local authority power base (much bigger and stronger than the parliamentary party has ever been) at risk?
I don't see how thinking that constituency parties, acting from rational self-interest, might spark a leadership contest, is pie-in-the-sky, especially not when the parliamentary party are compromising not only their own seats, but probably a good three-quarters (or more) of their local authority seats too.
If pols (local or national) are anything, it's pragmatic, and I'm sure that Clegg is aware of this, and bricking himself about it.

 

[gentlegreen]

INTO parliament would obviously be better

I rest my case.

Even if there wasn't a single MP I would piss on if on fire, there is a limit.

 

[kabbes]

Really? That's your case?

You have nothimg else to say about police brutality on 17 year-old girls?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You don't have a case. You went on one march 33 years ago, which was highlighting an issue that the government of the day will have supported.

You don't know what you're talking about. You seem to admit as much yourself.

 

[ymu]

Fuck the agreed route. We do not protest with the permission of the state. We protest against the state. No individual protester has any duty to follow any agreed route.

Of course. A lesson learned stupendously quickly by these kids. The kettle yesterday was because parliament was the focus - but there was still plenty of breakaway action elsewhere. But still, agreed routes have their uses. Get them to deploy hundreds of coppers in the wrong place, and leave the rest of London (plus Charlie and Camilla) unprotected.

Also, calling national days of protest in different cities prevents them from bringing in loads of cops from the provinces, and it means people can afford to get out there twice a week, not just twice a year.

It's all going swimmingly.

 

[belboid]

I rest my case.

Even if there wasn't a single MP I would piss on if on fire, there is a limit.

Being able to enter parliament to lobby ones MP is (supposedly) a cornerstone of British democracy.

And you're agin it.

 

[butchersapron]

I rest my case.

Even if there wasn't a single MP I would piss on if on fire, there is a limit.

Have you a holder for your case?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

agreed routes have their uses. Get them to deploy hundreds of coppers in the wrong place, and leave the rest of London (plus Charlie and Camilla) unprotected.

Good point.

 

[gentlegreen]

lobby ones MP

Yeah right ...

 

[belboid]

Lobby them, or lob them. Either would do for me.

 

[Streathamite]

Who were the right on Marxists trots and revolutionary's in their youth

which, when true (a few instances, but most were traineee careerists evcen then) makes it even worse, an even bigger betrayal

 

[Proper Tidy]

Right up to the doors of Parliament ?

Are you a Bennite by any chance?