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London rioting and looting, Aug 2011

treelover said:
re: the QT tonight is very important, a must view, i think it will give some indication of how the fallout will pan out, maybe they will have Owen jones On..
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bollocks will it. engage brain before posting - if you can. if you are going to have riots which have a number of people up in arms, then there's not better time to have it than in august. by the time parliament's properly back there'll be a number of other pressing issues before the commons and the immediate wankery may well have settled down a bit.
 
treelover said:
re: the QT tonight is very important, a must view, i think it will give some indication of how the fallout will pan out, maybe they will have Owen jones On..
Click to expand...
if you wanted important, you should have watched the HoC session today to get a flavour, Disco Dave flailing around to lay the blame and the cause anywhere but him and Gorgeous George, apparently Clegg was there, Millibean was useless, Lammy and Abbott were surprisingly good but overall, it's surges of police into troubled neighbourhoods, cuts in police budgets, demonisation of poor people, alternating with understanding poor people, although that could be seen as making excuses, and there are no excuses for these animal vermin, i say get the bleeding army in, rubber bullets, tear gas!!!!! :mad: :eek: :mad:
 
cybertect said:
I'm not sure New York City is the best example you could choose for your case. AFAIK, it has the toughest regulation of the private ownership of guns in the US. Indeed the reduction of crime in NYC from the extremes of the 1970s has coincided with the introduction of this approach (though undoubtedly other public policy changes and other general trends have contributed to the fall).

If you're right, presumably the crime stats for places like Houston, Las Vegas or Miami, which have more liberal firearms regimes should be even more favourable compared with London than those for NYC.

Fancy looking them up?
Click to expand...

Let's take Miami [1]
Miami National
Forcible Rape: 25.7 32.2
Aggravated Assault: 926.9 336.5

So if we add these violent crime rates (per 100,000), scale to per 1000, we get 9.3 per 1000. Pretty much same as London! hmm. However there are questions as to whether the London police have been grossly underreporting violent crime stats.

The important thing is that we do not rob people of their freedom to choose to defend themselves. The crime statistics are roughly equal, except for the murder rate, but like I said that is 1/1000th of the assault rate, and thus contributes very little to the actual day to day quality of life. I choose to have the option to defend myself and my family. I think disarming the populace has been shown to have no effect on the actual crime rates that affect people in their normal lives, and has some terrible consequences, such as leaving people helpless if their government becomes tyranical, or if the police are not coming for you when there are 20 masked scum throwing a firebomb at your house with your children inside of it.

[1] http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=tampa&s1=FL&c2=miami&s2=FL
 
Paulie Tandoori said:
if you wanted important, you should have watched the HoC session today to get a flavour, Disco Dave flailing around to lay the blame and the cause anywhere but him and Gorgeous George, apparently Clegg was there, Millibean was useless, Lammy and Abbott were surprisingly good but overall, it's surges of police into troubled neighbourhoods, cuts in police budgets, demonisation of poor people, alternating with understanding poor people, although that could be seen as making excuses, and there are no excuses for these animal vermin, i say get the bleeding army in, rubber bullets, tear gas!!!!! :mad: :eek: :mad:
Click to expand...
yes, get the army in, rubber bullets, tear gas. clear those vile mps out of the chamber :mad:
 
avr328 said:
Let's take Miami [1]
Miami National
Forcible Rape: 25.7 32.2
Aggravated Assault: 926.9 336.5

So if we add these violent crime rates (per 100,000), scale to per 1000, we get 9.3 per 1000. Pretty much same as London! hmm. However there are questions as to whether the London police have been grossly underreporting violent crime stats.

The important thing is that we do not rob people of their freedom to choose to defend themselves. The crime statistics are roughly equal, except for the murder rate, but like I said that is 1/1000th of the assault rate, and thus contributes very little to the actual day to day quality of life. I choose to have the option to defend myself and my family. I think disarming the populace has been shown to have no effect on the actual crime rates that affect people in their normal lives, and has some terrible consequences, such as leaving people helpless if their government becomes tyranical, or if the police are not coming for you when there are 20 masked scum throwing a firebomb at your house with your children inside of it.

[1] http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=tampa&s1=FL&c2=miami&s2=FL
Click to expand...

Are you seriously saying that America is safer than the UK? tell me, how many murders are there in the US per year, and then tell me the UK murder rate.
 
Pickman's model said:
about 24,000, and about 1,000.
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The murder rate is higher in the US, but it is still a very very unlikely event. As I said, the chances of dying in a car accident are higher. And if you look, the murders are NOT evenly distributed over society, but concentrated primarily in very dense and small areas of drug gangs and ghettos. Outside of the major urban cesspool areas, the murder rate is miniscule.

The murder rate is on the order of a few per 100,000 people. The assault rate is a thousand times higher, which is more like a 10 per thousand persons, is what you usually think of when you think about safety; getting seriously beaten, perhaps maimed or crippled for life. There are pscychological scars as well from being attacked. That rate is about the same in London and in the highest crime cities of the US, such as Miami. Assault rate in London is about triple of NYC.

DO you have NO critical thinking ability, the ability to analyze how statistics actually affect civil socirty, rather than run scared like a pigeon?

The point is that guns make basically no difference in day to day life, yet you force every honest person to disarm, to catch the 0.1% of the population who are scum, and who will generally get weapons regardless of the law. London is no safer, in terms that actually matter day to day, than Miami. Can you manage to wrap your minds around that? Do you have any statistics which significantly contradict that conclusion? Apparently you do not.

You basically have a model that people are hopeless scum who cannot be trusted.

We have the model that citizens are the power, not the government, and that we take responsibility for our lives, our self defense, and our freedom. Freedom involves choice, and the possibility that some people will choose poorly. But the answer is not to take away every sharp stick, blade, or firearm. That leads to no improvement in your safety, plus total lack of defense and complete dependency on the state for your security.

But that seems to be what most of the people on this board are comfortable with. George Orwell really knew the British soul when he wrote 1984.
 
avr328 said:
The murder rate is higher in the US, but it is still a very very unlikely event. As I said, the chances of dying in a car accident are higher. And if you look, the murders are NOT evenly distributed over society, but concentrated primarily in very dense and small areas of drug gangs and ghettos. Outside of the major urban cesspool areas, the murder rate is miniscule.

The murder rate is on the order of a few per 100,000 people. The assault rate is a thousand times higher, which is more like a 10 per thousand persons, is what you usually think of when you think about safety; getting seriously beaten, perhaps maimed or crippled for life. There are pscychological scars as well from being attacked. That rate is about the same in London and in the highest crime cities of the US, such as Miami. Assault rate in London is about triple of NYC.

DO you have NO critical thinking ability, the ability to analyze how statistics actually affect civil socirty, rather than run scared like a pigeon?

The point is that guns make basically no difference in day to day life, yet you force every honest person to disarm, to catch the 0.1% of the population who are scum, and who will generally get weapons regardless of the law. London is no safer, in terms that actually matter day to day, than Miami. Can you manage to wrap your minds around that? Do you have any statistics which significantly contradict that conclusion? Apparently you do not.

You basically have a model that people are hopeless scum who cannot be trusted.

We have the model that citizens are the power, not the government, and that we take responsibility for our lives, our self defense, and our freedom. Freedom involves choice, and the possibility that some people will choose poorly. But the answer is not to take away every sharp stick, blade, or firearm. That leads to no improvement in your safety, plus total lack of defense and complete dependency on the state for your security.

But that seems to be what most of the people on this board are comfortable with. George Orwell really knew the British soul when he wrote 1984.
Click to expand...

What I don't get is why your agueing that we should be armed, when the vast majority of people in the UK don't want to be.
 
avr328 said:
The murder rate is higher in the US, but it is still a very very unlikely event. As I said, the chances of dying in a car accident are higher. And if you look, the murders are NOT evenly distributed over society, but concentrated primarily in very dense and small areas of drug gangs and ghettos. Outside of the major urban cesspool areas, the murder rate is miniscule.

The murder rate is on the order of a few per 100,000 people. The assault rate is a thousand times higher, which is more like a 10 per thousand persons, is what you usually think of when you think about safety; getting seriously beaten, perhaps maimed or crippled for life. There are pscychological scars as well from being attacked. That rate is about the same in London and in the highest crime cities of the US, such as Miami. Assault rate in London is about triple of NYC.

DO you have NO critical thinking ability, the ability to analyze how statistics actually affect civil socirty, rather than run scared like a pigeon?

The point is that guns make basically no difference in day to day life, yet you force every honest person to disarm, to catch the 0.1% of the population who are scum, and who will generally get weapons regardless of the law. London is no safer, in terms that actually matter day to day, than Miami. Can you manage to wrap your minds around that? Do you have any statistics which significantly contradict that conclusion? Apparently you do not.

You basically have a model that people are hopeless scum who cannot be trusted.

We have the model that citizens are the power, not the government, and that we take responsibility for our lives, our self defense, and our freedom. Freedom involves choice, and the possibility that some people will choose poorly. But the answer is not to take away every sharp stick, blade, or firearm. That leads to no improvement in your safety, plus total lack of defense and complete dependency on the state for your security.

But that seems to be what most of the people on this board are comfortable with. George Orwell really knew the British soul when he wrote 1984.
Click to expand...

given the choice, I'd rather be assaulted than murdered.
 
avr328 said:
The violent crime rate in London is more than twice that in New York City.

According to Wikipedia [1] there is assault with grievous bodily harm rate of 9.5 per 1,000 residents of London.

In 2008/09 there 70,962 assault with injury offences in London with a rate of 9.5 per 1,000 residents.[27] This was slightly higher than the total rate for England and Wales, which was 7.0 per 1,000 residents.

Contrast that with New York, where Aggravated Assault is just 3 per 1,000 residents, and all violent crime including rape is just 5.8 per 1,000.

Rape rate in New York is 10 per 100,000, while in London the rate is 42!! With another estimated 40% of rape crimes unreported [4]

You are substantially more likely to be beaten, raped, and assaulted in London than in New York.

Murder happens much much less frequently, so the chances of an innocent person suffering it are tiny in both countries (just a few per 100,000). Chances of dying in a car accident are substanitally higher than being murdered. But assault and rape are about a thousand times more like to happen to you in a given year , and they are way higher in London.

The murders tend to occur specifically inside of drug gangs , so it is very skewed to take the numbers and apply them to the chances of an innocent person being murdered.

I will keep my handgun, carry it, and hope to god I never have to use it.

You citizens of London should take a look at how you have become prisoners of street violence, and stop being so smug
about your superior and illusory safety.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_London#Assault_with_injury

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_New_York_City

[3] http://www.met.police.uk/crimefigures/

[4] http://womensgrid.freecharity.org.uk/?p=1756
Click to expand...

I do adore the way you slipped so easily into smug superioity.

A shame then, that you post such a triumph of how not to make a comparison between the crime rates in two cities.

Allow me to give you some guidance. I assure you that it will be my pleasure and no trouble at all.

1) When attempting to compare any two items, objects or subjects, one must make sure that they are sufficiently alike. It does no good, for example, to compare an apple and a tomato. One should, of course, compare two apples, or at least two orchard fruits.

2) Similarly, when making comparisons with data, one should ensure that the compared data is gathered using as similar data-collection and collation systems as possible, and then factor a "handicapping" system to allow for deviation.

3) One also has to make sure that, if one is comparing data of criminal offences, that the offences being compared are closely matched. For example, do the criteria that constitute the offence of rape in New York City/The USA closely match those that constitute the offence in London/The UK?

May I cordially suggest you research these small points, before you stroke your weapon? :)
 
avr328 said:
Let's take Miami [1]
<snip>The important thing is that we do not rob people of their freedom to choose to defend themselves. The crime statistics are roughly equal, except for the murder rate, but like I said that is 1/1000th of the assault rate, and thus contributes very little to the actual day to day quality of life. I choose to have the option to defend myself and my family. I think disarming the populace has been shown to have no effect on the actual crime rates that affect people in their normal lives, and has some terrible consequences, such as leaving people helpless if their government becomes tyranical, or if the police are not coming for you when there are 20 masked scum throwing a firebomb at your house with your children inside of it.

[1] http://www.areaconnect.com/crime/compare.htm?c1=tampa&s1=FL&c2=miami&s2=FL
Click to expand...
the question is where do "they" (sorry but I'm technically an imigrant here) "not rob people of their freedom to choose to defend themselves" (to use your word)?
If any idiot that decides to have a go at me because he doesn't like "what I say/my face/the fact I looked at the telly/refused to hand over my money and possessions" is likely to have a gun (because that is what the right to bear arms makes easy) I'm moving out of here.
And make no mistakes, I "like" guns, they are very.. ..penis extension like.. especialy the automag 44 (this showw how behinf the times I am)which I handled at y friend the illegal gun dealer back when I was sixteen (I could have shot that right there and then, it was hard to hold on).
instaed if an idot turns up for a fight I can decide to fight or flee or something else, f a gang surround me, well, I'll hand my shit over (in most cases) coz I ain't dumb and putting some hot lead into someone(s) possibly causing their death is not something I'd want to have to contemplate for the rest of my life TYVM
do go away
but please stay
you sound like fun
 
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