Liz Truss’s time is up

[teuchter]

Nonsense. None of my reasons for taxation have anything to do with incentivising people to work at all.

I don't think I suggested that anyone's "reasons for taxation" are to do with incentivising people to work.

I'm talking about how you decide how much tax people should pay.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Another poll not looking good for the Barbaric Truss Death Cult

 

[brogdale]

I don't think I suggested that anyone's "reasons for taxation" are to do with incentivising people to work.

I'm talking about how you decide how much tax people should pay.

When billionaires have to go to food banks I'd say it would be just about right.

 

[teuchter]

I don't have a problem with govt borrowing per se. Others are right of course when they point out that a l/w govt would also be punished by the markets for borrowing to nationalise, for example. Labour governments aren't allowed to do this kind of thing.

My problem is with the basic iniquity of the whole thing. The rich aren't taxed enough. That's a moral point, not an economic theory one.

Do you have some numbers you'd set tax rates at, and a reasoning behind choosing those numbers?

 

[teuchter]

When billionaires have to go to food banks I'd say it would be just about right.

Feel free to outline your proposed system.

 

[Sue]

When billionaires have to go to food banks I'd say it would be just about right.

When nobody has to go to food banks would also be an improvement on the current state of affairs.

 

[brogdale]

Feel free to outline your proposed system.

Tax them until they reach a state of penury necessitating charity - they think its good enough for us

 

[maomao]

I don't think I suggested that anyone's "reasons for taxation" are to do with incentivising people to work.

I'm talking about how you decide how much tax people should pay.

So am I. And I'm saying that my calculations for that have nothing to do with incentivising work.

 

[teuchter]

So am I. And I'm saying that my calculations for that have nothing to do with incentivising work.

Let's see your calculations then

 

[CyberRose]

Probably. The best way to compare countries' taxes is to compare the overall tax take as a proportion of GDP. The UK is medium-low by European standards. This table is from 2019. Norway is indeed higher, so yes, they collect their tax in other ways.
View attachment 345209


There's quite a major trend in there. With a couple of striking exceptions, the richer countries tend to have higher taxes than the poorer countries (higher in terms of percentage and much higher in terms of absolute amounts).

Could the higher rate of taxes collected in richer countries be because there are smaller informal economies (i.e. people making money outside the system and therefore not paying tax, or income tax and social security at least) in those countries compared with poorer countries, rather than having a higher rate of tax? In other words, the higher the informal economy, the fewer the opportunities to collect tax? This graph, with a few exceptions, is almost the inverse of the graph you posted...

Informal / Shadow Economy Size | By Country | 2024 | Data | World Economics

An informal economy (informal sector or shadow economy) is the part of any economy that is neither offically taxed nor monitored.

www.worldeconomics.com

 

[maomao]

Let's see your calculations then

Tax the rich till they squeak, renationalise everything that's been privatised, nationalise lots of what's left, three day working weeks all round.

 

[teuchter]

Tax them until they reach a state of penury necessitating charity - they think its good enough for us

That seems outside of the scope of a discussion about income tax because surely you also have to start seizing their assets in order to achieve that.

 

[brogdale]

Tax the rich till they squeak, renationalise everything that's been privatised, nationalise lots of what's left, three day working weeks all round.

Whatever happened to demand the impossible?

 

[brogdale]

That seems outside of the scope of a discussion about income tax because surely you also have to start seizing their assets in order to achieve that.

Bring it on.

 

[Orang Utan]

Ignore him, he’s just trying to ‘epater les beans’

 

[teuchter]

Bring it on.

Fine. That's old hat though, and a different discussion.

 

[maomao]

Whatever happened to demand the impossible?

Well it's a bit extreme but while recent events are the result of extreme fuckwittery the real mistakes are embedded far deeper in the system.

 

[brogdale]

Fine. That's old hat though, and a different discussion.

All the time you talk about taxing declared/known incomes you're discussing taxing earned income; the parasites don't visibly earn anything to tax before it's stashed away in the tax havens.

 

[Sue]

That seems outside of the scope of a discussion about income tax because surely you also have to start seizing their assets in order to achieve that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Could the higher rate of taxes collected in richer countries be because there are smaller informal economies (i.e. people making money outside the system and therefore not paying tax, or income tax and social security at least) in those countries compared with poorer countries, rather than having a higher rate of tax? In other words, the higher the informal economy, the fewer the opportunities to collect tax? This graph, with a few exceptions, is almost the inverse of the graph you posted...

View attachment 345225

Informal / Shadow Economy Size | By Country | 2024 | Data | World Economics

An informal economy (informal sector or shadow economy) is the part of any economy that is neither offically taxed nor monitored.

www.worldeconomics.com

That's a good point. Still leaves the state without money to spend on services, though. Bulgarians get fuck all from the state, for example. Really fuck all - their health care system is appalling.

Switzerland is the massive outlier - lowest tax intake and smallest informal economy. UK manages to have a medium-low tax intake and one of the smallest informal economies. If anything the combination of the two graphs shows the UK's tax rates as comparatively even lower.

 

[Elpenor]

With the polls looking this bad there’s only one option for Truss now - to sink the Belgrano

 

[killer b]

That seems outside of the scope of a discussion about income tax because surely you also have to start seizing their assets in order to achieve that.

Talk dirty to me.

 

[moochedit]

That seems outside of the scope of a discussion about income tax because surely you also have to start seizing their assets in order to achieve that.

Wealth tax you mean.

Wealth tax - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[teuchter]

All the time you talk about taxing declared/known incomes you're discussing taxing earned income; the parasites don't visibly earn anything to tax before it's stashed away in the tax havens.

So you don't care whether higher rate income tax is set at 45 or 40 pc then?

 

[gosub]

With the polls looking this bad there’s only one option for Truss now - to sink the Belgrano

What? and sit out 30 years waiting for it to emerge that it was the correct thinking?
Don't that would be to her advantage on any level.

 

[maomao]

So you don't care whether higher rate income tax is set at 45 or 40 pc then?

It's the same as the royals. It's not the exact amount it costs us it's the principal of the fucking thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So you don't care whether higher rate income tax is set at 45 or 40 pc then?

In the 1970s, the top rate was 83%. Returning to that would be a decent start.

Sends a clear message. You've got enough fucking money already.

 

[CyberRose]

With the polls looking this bad there’s only one option for Truss now - to sink the Belgrano

Unfortunately, I think she's probably thinking more along the lines of - sink the Belgranovski

 

[teuchter]

In the 1970s, the top rate was 83%. Returning to that would be a decent start.

Sends a clear message. You've got enough fucking money already.

Why only 83% and not 99% or 100%?

 

[rasputin]

The current highest rate is 60 percent, for the band of income between £100k and £125k. After that it reverts to 40 percent.