Leytonstone tube station "terrorist incident"?

[frogwoman]

So whats your explanation for say cameron and corbyn? Are they mad? An individual ISIS terrorist (which it now appears that they leytonstone fella wasn't) might well have mental health problems but the vast majority of the population do at some point. I dont doubt many are sadistic psychopaths but a large number of people who go to join ISIS do so (or said they did so) because they thought they were helping oppressed people, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

 

[Pickman's model]

So whats your explanation for say cameron and corbyn? Are they mad? An individual ISIS terrorist (which it now appears that they leytonstone fella wasn't) might well have mental health problems but the vast majority of the population do at some point. I dont doubt many are sadistic psychopaths but a large number of people who go to join ISIS do so (or said they did so) because they thought they were helping oppressed people, the road to hell is often paved with good intentions.

the road to hell *is* paved with good intentions

 

[Batboy]

I understand that. I'm not lining up to well-wish anyone. But I work with severely ill people every day. There's no culpability if someone is medically psychotic, and what the family, and the victim, and society needs now, is help for him.

Harpo I understand what you are saying. Do you think there is a paradox here?, how do we accept there is no culpability especially in say people like Ian Brady? I don't agree with the death penalty but I think most would be quite happy if Brady had simply been killed.

 

[Batboy]

Interesting Batboy.
I think this is a bit of a pointless argument, because of course some of the people who are on waiting lists to strap explosives to themselves will surely be so desperate and in such an extreme state of mind that you could if you want to apply the word 'mad' to them. That last bit up there, the conclusion, is a little worrying though - I mean it looks a lot like he's suggesting that depressed people should be put on a watch list.

Also, the study of Palestinian failed bombers by the Israeli psychologist concludes with this not totally convincing thing:
"None of the 15 would-be suicide bombers we interviewed suffered from a psychosis, but they had one of two personality types. Two-thirds were dependent-avoidant: such people find it hard to say no to authority figures and are more likely to cooperate to carry out tasks against their own judgement. They are also greatly influenced by public opinion. The rest were impulsive and emotionally unstable. '
That just sounds like.. people, not especially mad people ?

Of course it's pointless, I agree. The issue of mental health can be very subjective (As I keep posting). At what point does extreme anger constitute or boil over into madness? Or does it even?

I don't think anyone has the answers.

 

[Batboy]

“Mohammad Atta, the 9/11 ringleader, suffered from depression, shame and hopelessness for years"

And? Who doesn't in todays society ffs.

That's totally irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant. Is depression not a mental health issue? And whilst many at some point 'get depressed ' including you, including me including everyone, as you say. It is often when it becomes perpetual and a constant in our lives that it can implode.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not irrelevant. Is depression not a mental health issue? And whilst many at some point 'get depressed ' including you, including me including everyone, as you say. It is often when it becomes perpetual and a constant in our lives that it can implode.

I've suffered from depression on and off throughout my life as well as an anxiety disorder that's severely effected my life and not once have I felt the urge to flock to the black banner of Jihad and kill some innocent plane/train passengers.

 

[frogwoman]

I'm not saying that certain psychotic conditions can't make you hear voices to kill people or that mental illness isn't a factor in some murders etc but can we not just accept that something as planned-out and meticulous as 9/11 was not a result of mental illness. It was a political choice these people made. If they were mentally ill and psychotic to the level of hearing voices, getting urges to kill people they would never have been able to plan what they did so meticulously and follow orders from core al-Qaeda.

 

[frogwoman]

It's not irrelevant. Is depression not a mental health issue? And whilst many at some point 'get depressed ' including you, including me including everyone, as you say. It is often when it becomes perpetual and a constant in our lives that it can implode.

Lots of people become depressed. 1 in 2 people suffer from mental health problems at some point in their lives. A lot of people have to take medication or be hospitalised because of it. To imply that if it's untreated and "implodes" then you can end up doing something like I dunno, getting together with twenty other religious fanatics to plan the worst terrorist atrocity of modern times, is just preposterous tbh. And insulting. Most people with depression, psychosis, personality disorders, etc, are not dangers to others.

 

[BigMoaner]

has "major depression" ever been used in a criminal court as a defence/insanity defence? i know psychosis is, rightly so. but depression?

 

[frogwoman]

People whose lives are affeced by mental illness to that extent are far more likely to kill themselves rather than become involved in terrorist organisations.

Have you looked at any ISIS propaganda? It's well set out, it's consistent, it's very visually appealing. The nasheeds which are so catchy some of them have actually become popular songs that are played at fucking weddings , the interviews in Dabiq magazine with various Jihadis that look like 'hello magazine' interviews , the 'just terror' cover of Dabiq, the fact various Sheikhs in Saudi Arabia have refused to condemn them, that's an organisation many of whose members are the exact opposite of mentally ill, their ideas are repellent and evil but that's not the same as being 'mad' at all.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Provide me with one rational non mental illness reason as why you would want to die?

Because all of the social and personal relationships which gave your life meaning and pleasure are gone.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Louis MacNeice]

I would say quite categorically that dying is one of the objectives of a suicide bomber, the clue is in the word 'suicide'.

Suicide can be the means rather than the end; it can be a description of what they do not what they want to achieve.

Louis MacNeice

 

[Pickman's model]

Provide me with one rational non mental illness reason as why you would want to die?

define rational.

 

[BigMoaner]

"Provide me with one rational non mental illness reason as why you would want to die?"

because they're so overtly political/religious that they want to bring down the enemy with them?

 

[BigMoaner]

"personality type" would be more interesting to measure among suicide bombers. i wouldn't be surprised if there was strong themes in regards personality, i.e. the tendency to express rage externally, black and whtie thinking, etc, etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

"Provide me with one rational non mental illness reason as why you would want to die?"

because they're so overtly political/religious that they want to bring down the enemy with them?

the samson scenario

 

[bimble]

The issue of mental health can be very subjective (As I keep posting). At what point does extreme anger constitute or boil over into madness? Or does it even?
I don't think anyone has the answers.

^ He's already said this.

 

[Pickman's model]

^ He's already said this.
View attachment 80617

 

[Louis MacNeice]

It's not irrelevant. Is depression not a mental health issue? And whilst many at some point 'get depressed ' including you, including me including everyone, as you say. It is often when it becomes perpetual and a constant in our lives that it can implode.

A mental distress issue certainly, but why always a health issue, which seems to suggest a health care response? Depression may be a perfectly rational response to the circumstances in which we find ourselves; change those circumstances (e.g. through social or economic interventions) and the depression can be 'cured'.

Indeed there is evidence to show that depressed people have a more accurate view of the world; why would we want to pathologise such a talent?

What I'm arguing for here is a much less black and white view of 'mental illness'; one that really questions the diagnostic categories (such as depression or schizophrenia) which may be lumping together all sorts of very different experiences and looks for solutions to 'the problems of living' beyond health care services and the the individual.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

Why the fuck not just kill Iain Dunked-in-shit rather than take your life as well? You could just shoot him, you don't have to blow yourself up with a pipe bomb shoved up your arse, why waste your life? You would be a fruit loop if you did that, thats why you don't do it, because you're not a fruit loop.

Because I wouldn't get close enough to kill him with conventional weapons (he has protection from armed police, as he's not very popular), and I haven't owned a rifle for nearly 20 years. The only reason I don't do it IS NOT because I'm sane, it's because the state would persecute my wife and family in my absence.

The IRA when they went and blew people up they clearly had no intention of dying themselves, that's because despite having their absolute convictions they weren't nuts or using people who were nuts to do the deeds.

PIRA members didn't do suicide mostly because many were mass-attending Catholics for whom suicide is anathema, and gets you sent to either Purgatory or Hell.

I'm sorry... insult me all you fucking like... as usual it's the usual gang on U75 that get together mob handed to jump on someone that dares to have a different opinion particularly on Middle Eastern topics. I never revert to personal insults like you, Butchers whatsits and others do... 15 alerts from three of you all having a pop at me in under 20 minutes, like I'm some stupid cunt... get a grip it's just an internet forum some people have different views and opinions.

What "personal insult". There's no "personal insult" in the post you replied to. Stop using the fact that you feel insulted to get out of substantiating the claims you make. saying that you are unable to take other perspectives onboard because you're convinced of your own correctness ISN'T an insult, it's an informed opinion drawn from years of reading your posts. And I didn't even charge you for that psychological insight into your psyche.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The following is an article from New Scientist the author is Adam Lankford a criminal justice professor at The University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. His thoughts mirror mine but according to some on Urban 75 I have no knowledge and I guess by that correlation stupid. I guess that makes Lankford stupid too.

I get tired of the personal slants especially from Violent Panda. who it seems as soon as you challenge his view point has to revert to personal insults. This is disappointing and is made even more disappointing when others endorse his postings without really looking at the wording.

You can't be persuaded to think different, because you "know" (without actual knowledge) that you're right. In other words I am thick and stupid. You lose my respect when you post comments like this. Over the last few years I have learnt to temper my responses, many of us do it including me at times.

You interpret the above as "you're thick and stupid, batboy". It actually means exactly what it says - that it's near-impossible to convince you of anything, because your mind is already set on your own opinion, even when your opinion isn't an informed one.

Don't put words in my mouth, eh?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Because all of the social and personal relationships which gave your life meaning and pleasure are gone.

Louis MacNeice

Or threatened.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"personality type" would be more interesting to measure among suicide bombers. i wouldn't be surprised if there was strong themes in regards personality, i.e. the tendency to express rage externally, black and whtie thinking, etc, etc.

The problem being that most personality-typing currently in use is heavily "Western"-centric. It's constructed around a basis of majority western culture, so it's about the personalities of white western Europeans and Americans, and doesn't take into account, for example, the effect that living in a religio-political ferment - or even having extended family that live in it - can have on an individual.

 

[quiquaquo]

Why the fuck not just kill Iain Dunked-in-shit rather than take your life as well? You could just shoot him, you don't have to blow yourself up with a pipe bomb shoved up your arse, why waste your life? You would be a fruit loop if you did that, thats why you don't do it, because you're not a fruit loop.

The IRA when they went and blew people up they clearly had no intention of dying themselves, that's because despite having their absolute convictions they weren't nuts or using people who were nuts to do the deeds.

I'm sorry... insult me all you fucking like... as usual it's the usual gang on U75 that get together mob handed to jump on someone that dares to have a different opinion particularly on Middle Eastern topics. I never revert to personal insults like you, Butchers whatsits and others do... 15 alerts from three of you all having a pop at me in under 20 minutes, like I'm some stupid cunt... get a grip it's just an internet forum some people have different views and opinions.

Well said, the sneering insults, arrogance and barely disguised racism always come from the usual 5 or 6 posters.

 

[Pickman's model]

Well said, the sneering insults, arrogance and barely disguised racism always come from the usual 5 or 6 posters.

so that's you and four or five others then.

 

[Spymaster]

Well said, the sneering insults, arrogance and barely disguised racism always come from the usual 5 or 6 posters.

Racism?

 

[Pickman's model]

Racism?

quiquaquo's a well-known racist, see his views on people in the south-west for example.

 

[frogwoman]

Your dodgy jew stuff and implying that I was working for Israeli security services on the basis of no evidence whatsoever not racist then. Prick.

 

[nino_savatte]

I had no idea quidproquo was a racist.

 

[quiquaquo]

I had no idea quidproquo was a racist.

Nor had I.