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Legitimate criticism of Islam

weltweit said:
One thing I have learnt, as someone who starts a few threads myself. If my own threads are not interesting, I usually have only myself to blame ! :)
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Well it was my own fault for bringing up Dawkins which started the derail. But I didn't anticipate that the idea that harassment should be prosecuted would be controversial.
 
Has anyone said "because the only one-word anagram that can be made with it is 'mails' ", yet?
 
Left said:
Well it was my own fault for bringing up Dawkins which started the derail. But I didn't anticipate that the idea that harassment should be prosecuted would be controversial.
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There are lots of things I would call the police over. Seeing two people wrapping bacon around the door handles of a building is not one of them.

Yes, I understand the nasty intent behind it. No I don't think any kind of prison sentence is in any way proportionate.
 
As a non believer I have reservations about all religion and think there are definitely aspects of each that deserve critique. Their very existence is one issue, but their cruelties, silly regimes, brain washing and harm whether intended or not certainly deserve attack. The only reason I don't post stronger critique of islam on this very thread is due to my general ignorance of it. However I am sure those who know more, and Dawkins probably does, can do and should fire away at will.
 
weltweit said:
As a non believer I have reservations about all religion and think there are definitely aspects of each that deserve critique. Their very existence is one issue, but their cruelties, silly regimes, brain washing and harm whether intended or not certainly deserve attack. The only reason I don't post stronger critique of islam on this very thread is due to my general ignorance of it. However I am sure those who know more, and Dawkins probably does, can do and should fire away at will.
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It's critiquing the nonsense which is religion while at the same time being respectful of sincerely held beliefs which are central to many people's identity which is the hard part. Anyone can tell a Muslim that bacon is better than chicken.
 
Is it necessary to overtly criticise Islam or any religion at all. To engage in challenging fascistic, ultra conservative practisces by siting the perceived idoligical basis on which they are conducted seems to me rather pointless. Pointless, in that it embroils you in parochial interstine arguments. What is a cultural practise, which can be ascribed to the tennates of a particular belief...

Fuck all that. Argue against them because we don't agree with forced marriage, murdering homosexuals, supporting and helping to enforce a fudalistic world view. It doesn't matter that you don't understand the intricacies of the Kuran, Bible, Tora etc. Is this muscular liberterianist secularism? Yes, it is. But only so far as defending a generally humanistic space.


Fuck I could have worded that better but tl/dr. Live and let live. Read what you will. But if you try and enforce your beliefs on me and those I care about, it's war. I care not for your supposed rationle guiding your attacks.
 
Also I kinda get why you might have said what you did, re dangerous ideas. But you are wrong Left. THink about it. I have said certain people should be thrown off a bridge at times. I would be subject to your logic. Don't make the law a tool of those in power any more than it is. That's what your logic does. It's just you're on a different side.
 
8ball said:
Something happened in the middle there...
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I miss your point. My stance re religion is generally les ces fare (No I tried to Google the spelling honestly.) It's nnot necessary to attack Islam because some muslims do X. Attack the fact X bad thing is being done and don't engage in the what is proper Islam question. That way lies.. Well, several more centuries of bloody nonsense.
 
xenon said:
I miss your point. My stance re religion is generally les ces fare (No I tried to Google the spelling honestly.) It's nnot necessary to attack Islam because some muslims do X. Attack the fact X bad thing is being done and don't engage in the what is proper Islam question. That way lies.. Well, several more centuries of bloody nonsense.
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french mate, laissez faire. I know you type with limited visual options. words of forign tongue adopted by the linguistic pirate english
 
xenon said:
I miss your point. My stance re religion is generally les ces fare.
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My point was that this is unfortunately not always the stance of followers of religions. Though I think in this country it's some branches of Christianity you really need to watch out for.
 
Left said:
......all men are potential rapists. I don't want all men jailed, but if the red flags are there, I'd rather imprison a non-violent misogynist than let a predator go free.
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You really do need to get a handle on that whole insanity thing.

free spirit said:
Bacon does not equal terrorism.
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Try telling that to the pig! But even so... terrorism is acceptable if bacon is the result.
 
8ball said:
My point was that this is unfortunately not always the stance of followers of religions. Though I think in this country it's some branches of Christianity you really need to watch out for.
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Sure. I'm not setting off one religious belief against another or factions of those religions. Rather I suppose seaking to drawer a line to say regardless of your belief, these things are not acceptable. (I hate that phrase actually, not acceptable. Ooh, we're gonna get like totally mad and not accept this stuff...)
 
xenon said:
Sure. I'm not setting off one religious belief against another or factions of those religions. Rather I suppose seaking to drawer a line to say regardless of your belief, these things are not acceptable. (I hate that phrase actually, not acceptable. Ooh, we're gonna get like totally mad and not accept this stuff...)
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That was meant to be the plan with the 'tolerant secular society' thing that we were braying about around the time of the Olympics, but that seems to have been put back in the box now.
 
8ball said:
That was meant to be the plan with the 'tolerant secular society' thing that we were braying about around the time of the Olympics, but that seems to have been put back in the box now.
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I missed that. I am talking from a personal PoV really rather than consciously subscribing to an existing political stance. I haven't read the thread in entirety. :oops:
 
xenon said:
I missed that. I am talking from a personal PoV really rather than consciously subscribing to an existing political stance. I haven't read the thread in entirety. :oops:
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I was being a bit facetious to fair - I think the values touted around that time stuck in a lot of Tory craws - you can Google 'Aidan Burley leftie Olympics' as a handy reminder if its getting hazy.
 
Left said:
I'm quite happy to jail potentially dangerous people. I'd be happy to jail people who make rape jokes and threats online - we'd catch plenty of unconvicted rapists. If a few non-rapists get caught up in it, well boo hoo..
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Article 19.
  • Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers
Declaration of human rights....
 
That's nice.

Why is it so hard for people to realise that hate speech limits people's freedom of expression?

I'm fucking sick of people actively trying to SILENCE PEOPLE in the name of freedom of speech. I mean it would be funny if it wasn't fucking terrible. How many people have been driven away from Guardian CIF because of the toxic culture in the comments there? But we can't delete the comments because "ffree speech". Well fuck that.
 
Left said:
That's nice.

Why is it so hard for people to realise that hate speech limits people's freedom of expression?

I'm fucking sick of people actively trying to SILENCE PEOPLE in the name of freedom of speech. I mean it would be funny if it wasn't fucking terrible. How many people have been driven away from Guardian CIF because of the toxic culture in the comments there? But we can't delete the comments because "ffree speech". Well fuck that.
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I've never read 'CIF' but unless those comments are actually illegal (are they?) I see no reason why anyone is 'driven away'? Surely people aren't that delicate that they leave a discussion because they don't like what somebody posts?
 
Dr_Herbz said:
I've never read 'CIF' but unless those comments are actually illegal (are they?) I see no reason why anyone is 'driven away'? Surely people aren't that delicate that they leave a discussion because they don't like what somebody posts?
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Yes, I'm afraid they are "that delicate", especially when the discussion involves being shouted down and having one's personal experiences dismissed.

Misogynistic comments and the Guardian | Women's Views on News
http://www.womensviewsonnews.org/2011/04/comment-is-anything-but-“free”-at-the-guardian/
Guardian Comment is Free: anti-feminist? | Mumsnet Discussion

I try not to read it although I'm not personally affected by these issues. I'm still raging after reading the comments on this article I found:
Who is a rapist? | Megan Carpentier | Comment is free | The Guardian
Read those comments, if it doesn't make you want to scream at the heavens then I don't know what to say
 
It's a fucked up religion, but then which isn't?

It amuses me people are always on the back of the Scientologists. Criticism of that as been full of looneys seems ok and even fashionable, whereas god forbid you criticise Muslims or Christians as having equally insane beliefs. They're all fucking nuts.
 
I'll just say (cos i go to church every Sunday) that i think there are many pathways to this thing we call 'God'. Myself and my Dad (who is nearly 78) go to mass every Sunday and we read the Bible there and think about the words....i wouldnt usually go to mass but i enjoy it, and i pray for people. I reflect on the gospels and think about people who need my prayers and pray for an hour every week....although im a Christian by birth, i could be doing this in a Synagogue or a Mosque....actually, i could be doing this in a park drinking cans with RaverDrew, wishing well to our friends (as Drew and i used to do....). Prayer is good energy - wherever it comes from because 'God' is Allah and all that is within you - if you read the testimonies of St Francis, Joan of Arc and other mystics (this stuff i used to discuss with my deceased friend), to be born human is the greatest gift of all X
 
What do you think praying for people is going to achieve exactly? I don't get it. I was raised a Catholic myself. I was even made an altar boy to try to curb my questioning of the priests about how nuts and full of shit the bible was.

You might as well believe that the Lord of the Rings is based on actual events.
 
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