Legitimate criticism of Islam

[Pickman's model]

incidentally it is bollocks that love always protects and never fails

 

[MrSki]

Jesus was a bastard. Discuss.

 

[gabi]

Islam tells Muslims that they need not fast if they aren't well enough to do so. Fasting is a choice, Muslims observe it because it's important to them. But it's not compulsorary.

Wearing the hijab is also a choice, or at least is presented as such by the young women I work with. They choose, as they approach puberty, whether they want to be observant of that part if the practice of Islam. We have sisters at school where one does and one doesn't.

Now I'm sure in extremist families these things aren't presented as a choice. Some families of all religions and none are difficult, controlling places to grow up. But Islam itself, as practiced by most of the hundreds of young people I have known, is flexible and humane and realistic. It's perhaps worth observing that for a Muslim family to want to emigrate to the uk, it is often because the observance of Islam here can be more flexible than in their country of origin.

I'm an atheist. I think religion has no place in education or in providing exemption from laws (see homophobic B&B owners et al.). I think a lot of stuff done in the name of each religion is terrible. I have never felt less able to articulate this about Islam than I have about Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, or any other superstition. But I think you have to come from a position of knowledge about that which you are challenging.

You don't sound much like an atheist tbf. Do you know what the word means?

It's a fucked up religion, like all of them. Islam - flexible, humane and realistic? Jesus wept.

 

[weltweit]

... It's a fucked up religion, like all of them. Islam - flexible, humane and realistic? Jesus wept.

Could you expand on that? I don't know a lot about Islam so I am interested.

 

[Lea]

Islam tells Muslims that they need not fast if they aren't well enough to do so. Fasting is a choice, Muslims observe it because it's important to them. But it's not compulsorary.

Wearing the hijab is also a choice, or at least is presented as such by the young women I work with. They choose, as they approach puberty, whether they want to be observant of that part if the practice of Islam. We have sisters at school where one does and one doesn't.

Now I'm sure in extremist families these things aren't presented as a choice. Some families of all religions and none are difficult, controlling places to grow up. But Islam itself, as practiced by most of the hundreds of young people I have known, is flexible and humane and realistic. It's perhaps worth observing that for a Muslim family to want to emigrate to the uk, it is often because the observance of Islam here can be more flexible than in their country of origin.

I'm an atheist. I think religion has no place in education or in providing exemption from laws (see homophobic B&B owners et al.). I think a lot of stuff done in the name of each religion is terrible. I have never felt less able to articulate this about Islam than I have about Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, or any other superstition. But I think you have to come from a position of knowledge about that which you are challenging.

Wearing the hijab is meant to be a choice. However, there are many strict muslims out there who put pressure on their women to wear it so it no longer becomes a choice. Got talking to an Algerian and he said that women who did not cover their hair were not real muslims! I'm sure there are many who think like him.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus was a bastard. Discuss.

parents unmarried: end of

 

[butchersapron]

Who are the men who would be deciding what is legitimate criticism? Would these be the same authorities who get to decide which jokes deserve jailing for? Some sort of recognised authority who has spent years immersed in the subject - let's call him an imam shall we? Let's allow imams to decide what is legitimate criticism of Islam, and in line with the op, let's give them the power to enforce their rulings with measures up to and including jailing. Then let's do the same with Christians, Sikhs, Marxists, tories, left libertarians and so on.

Then we'd have a lovely socially segregated and intellectually timid society where you can only criticise within narrow limits tightly policed by those who hold power, and where we are all stuck in that single identity forever, unless the authorities allow us to think different now and again.

Our we could not even entertain such a daft idea.

 

[butchersapron]

And a good way to reach a position where informed social criticism is widespread is to encourage people to question authority rather than to defer to it. To challenge rather than to meekly accept.

 

[butchersapron]

State licensed dissent ffs

 

[Greebo]

Wearing the hijab is meant to be a choice. However, there are many strict muslims out there who put pressure on their women to wear it so it no longer becomes a choice. Got talking to an Algerian and he said that women who did not cover their hair were not real muslims! I'm sure there are many who think like him.

Many self-defined strict Muslims. As I understand it, one Muslim isn't supposed to judge how much of a believer another is, because that's supposed to be something which Allah alone can decide.

 

[Cheesypoof]

I have no problem with anyone wishing good tidings on another person. It's a nice thing to do but that just falls into the 'try to be nice' option. What I don't understand is why you have to attribute your 'being nice' to how some guy who lived a couple of millennia ago may or may not have lived? Why not just live by the 'Don't be a cunt' rule, and attribute your 'not being a cunt' to the fact that you're not?

i dont subscribe it just to Jesus, but any person who is good. I agree wholeheartedly with the 'Dont be a cunt rule' too and that sums it up really.

 

[spanglechick]

You don't sound much like an atheist tbf. Do you know what the word means?

It's a fucked up religion, like all of them. Islam - flexible, humane and realistic? Jesus wept.

I'm an atheist because I'm absolutely sure god doesn't exist.

I think ppl who believe in a god are wrong. But I know lots and lots of children from religiously moderate, tolerant families... And just as most of the Christian children come from families where sex before marriage is accepted, most of the Muslim students come from families where their faith is practiced in a context of free will.

Wearing the hijab is meant to be a choice. However, there are many strict muslims out there who put pressure on their women to wear it so it no longer becomes a choice. Got talking to an Algerian and he said that women who did not cover their hair were not real muslims! I'm sure there are many who think like him.

I'm sure there are. I've said exactly that. But in my experience it is not anything like an overwhelming majority.

 

[ibilly99]

Jesus was a bastard. Discuss.

Here I am with my stall in the temple going about my lawful business selling my wares - have permission and pay my dues to the elders and in comes this scruffy beggar type - starts ranting at me and kicks over my table. Bastard !

 

[Spymaster]

And just as most of the Christian children come from families where sex before marriage is accepted, most of the Muslim students come from families where their faith is practiced in a context of free will.

I think the free will issue gets distorted. As you acknowledged there's pressure on youngsters from within the family to conform in many cases and also pressure on families from communities, and whilst little or no counter-opinion is tolerated the free will experienced is in a relatively narrow margin.

Your example of girls choosing to wear the hijab is a case in point. They can in some cases choose not to observe this small tradition but if they were to seek to exercise genuinely meaningful free will and marry a jew or convert to christianity they'll likely find themselves in serious trouble.

 

[8ball]

Who are the men who would be deciding what is legitimate criticism?

What a dreadful thing to say.

In this future Utopia women will enjoy equal, nay, 51% representation at the Ministry Of Sanctioned Thoughts.

 

[spanglechick]

I think the free will issue gets distorted. As you acknowledged there's pressure on youngsters from within the family to conform in many cases and also pressure on families from communities, and whilst little or no counter-opinion is tolerated the free will experienced is in a relatively narrow margin.

Your example of girls choosing to wear the hijab is a case in point. They can in some cases choose not to observe this small tradition but if they were to seek to exercise genuinely meaningful free will and marry a jew or convert to christianity they may find themselves in serious trouble.

I think perhaps Asian Islamic cultures are foremost in your mind? I wouldn't like to say. But we have many African and Turkish Muslims in our school. Very few wear the hijab (nor do some of the Asian girls), and many have boyfriends who are not Muslim. At least one is gay and "out".

Of course cultural coercion exists, but it's perhaps not as common as you make out. I think I have a lot of experience, working in an inner city girls' secondary. I teach over 450 young women a week, and have done so for the last seven years. About 40% of them are Muslim. In drama we explore a lot of topics related to family, gender, body autonomy... I'm telling you what I've experienced. What the girls themselves report.

 

[Spymaster]

I think perhaps Asian Islamic cultures are foremost in your mind? I wouldn't like to say. But we have many African and Turkish Muslims in our school. Very few wear the hijab (nor do some of the Asian girls), and many have boyfriends who are not Muslim. At least one is gay and "out".

Yes. The majority of my experience of Muslims is of those from the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East. If you say Turks and Africans are different I've no reason to doubt you. I do know that most of the Muslim males that I'm aware of would would be apoplectic with rage if they knew their school aged daughters/sisters were dating at all, never mind the religion of their suitors.

Of course cultural coercion exists, but it's perhaps not as common as you make out.

I haven't really commented as to its prevalence. My point is the speculation that Muslim girls reporting free will are doing so from a narrow, religiously defined, viewpoint.

 

[spanglechick]

Yes. The majority of my experience of Muslims is of those from the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East. If you say Turks and Africans are different I've no reason to doubt you. I do know that most of the Muslim males that I'm aware of would would be apoplectic with rage if they knew their school aged daughters/sisters were dating at all, never mind the religion of their suitors.



I haven't really commented as to its prevalence. My point is the speculation that Muslim girls reporting free will are doing so from a narrow, religiously defined, viewpoint.

I think that's quite patronising, tbh. Why would you know better than they do? They all have non Muslim friends, they know what life is like in other families. They watch TV...

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

yes. but you've agreed it's not christ's message.

Actually I think it was very much in line with Christ's message.

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

And a good way to reach a position where informed social criticism is widespread is to encourage people to question authority rather than to defer to it. To challenge rather than to meekly accept.

Not just authority though.
Question everything.
Question motives.
Question agendas.
They are everywhere not just from the top down.
"To thine own self be true" and there's a lot to be said for respecting others.
Bit of a rushed post....work is interfering. .

 

[Pickman's model]

Actually I think it was very much in line with Christ's message.

very much in line - but not christ's message then.

 

[Pickman's model]

I dreamed I stood upon a hill, and, lo!
The godly multitudes walked to and fro
Beneath, in Sabbath garments fitly clad,
With pious mien, appropriately sad,
While all the church bells made a solemn din --
A fire-alarm to those who lived in sin.
Then saw I gazing thoughtfully below,
With tranquil face, upon that holy show
A tall, spare figure in a robe of white,
Whose eyes diffused a melancholy light.
'God keep you, stranger,' I exclaimed. 'You are
No doubt (your habit shows it) from afar;
And yet I entertain the hope that you,
Like these good people, are a Christian too.'
He raised his eyes and with a look so stern
It made me with a thousand blushes burn
Replied -- his manner with disdain was spiced:
'What! I a Christian? No, indeed! I'm Christ.'

--Ambrose Bierce

 

[Spymaster]

I think that's quite patronising, tbh. Why would you know better than they do? They all have non Muslim friends, they know what life is like in other families. They watch TV...

Then in that case we need to define "free will" and its capaciousness. Does not having to wear a hijab bestow free will if one can't choose if and where to go on to further education, for example? Can a girl marry freely etc, etc?

Our experiences differ enormously, btw. Back later.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think that's quite patronising, tbh. Why would you know better than they do? They all have non Muslim friends, they know what life is like in other families. They watch TV...

does anyone know what life is really like in other families?

 

[Pickman's model]

Not just authority though.
Question everything.
Question motives.
Question agendas.
They are everywhere not just from the top down.
"To thine own self be true" and there's a lot to be said for respecting others.
Bit of a rushed post....work is interfering. .

there's a notable lack of your questioning christianity on this thread.

 

[Pickman's model]

i dont necessarily subscribe to religious beliefs . But i do believe that the human power of 'good will' has an affect on others. The amount of times some athiest or agnostic pal of mine has asked me to pray for them....is countless!!! Prayer does work.

as for the Bible....i think if we all try and live by the basic values of Jesus Christ, we'd be better people.

i'd like to see you produce some evidence of the efficacy of prayer. the 2006 step study didn't find any positive effect: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

 

[Sirena]

Hijabs but our hijabs.....

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

very much in line - but not christ's message then.

I don't recall quoting it as such. It was clearly marked corinthians. .. You just decided to misinterpret the post..

 

[DotCommunist]

yeah exactly the same thing

 

[bubblesmcgrath]

i'd like to see you produce some evidence of the efficacy of prayer. the 2006 step study didn't find any positive effect: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Ask anyone working in intensive care or hospices whether patient's prayers help them in some way. You'd be surprised how it can calm people and ease their time.