Legitimate criticism of Islam

[friedaweed]

I can't post the Roy version until he's cleared his name..




bring on the fatwa

 

[Mr Moose]

i'd like to see you produce some evidence of the efficacy of prayer. the 2006 step study didn't find any positive effect: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Clearly prayer works on some levels otherwise millions of people wouldn't have done it for thousands of years. It's a kind of empty chair technique allowing people to form questions and imagine the answers. It also presumably has some negative consequences talking to an unresponsive and indifferent diety. Praying together must have some cohesive benefit at least.

Not my way though, but there's nowt queer as folk.

 

[ibilly99]

Back to criticisms - only muslims are allowed to visit Mecca - entry is banned to non-believers which seems a bit sectarian to my kuffir mind.

 

[ibilly99]

Something of this sort perhaps..

"It was on 19 April 1900, the first year of the 20th century, when the Irish poet W.B. Yeats came under astral siege in the headquarters of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn at 36 Blythe Road, Hammersmith from a spell casting, hex issuing, kilt wearing, black Osiris masked Crowley armed with a ceremonial dagger intent on seizing the vaults within and claiming the temple and the order as his own, although at this point in time ostensibly on behalf of Macgregor Mathers.

Although Crowley’s flamboyant bid was thwarted by Yeats and the Metropolitan Police Constabulary, the inevitable schism that would ensue ultimately sealed the fate of the Golden Dawn who disbanded shortly after.

Crowley would go on to form the A.’.A.’. in 1907 with Cecil Jones."

Looks like they've made a low budget biopic.

 

[Mr Moose]

i did think my avatar something of a give-away

Is it an early, since discarded, logo for the, then more extreme, Automobile Association?

 

[Pickman's model]

Clearly prayer works on some levels otherwise millions of people wouldn't have done it for thousands of years. It's a kind of empty chair technique allowing people to form questions and imagine the answers. It also presumably has some negative consequences talking to an unresponsive and indifferent diety. Praying together must have some cohesive benefit at least.

Not my way though, but there's nowt queer as folk.

so no evidence then

 

[purves grundy]

And to do so repeatedly, as a "right" is worthless of you don't exercise it.

don't or can't?

 

[Mr Moose]

so no evidence then

People reporting what they feel is widely considered evidence in health studies. And also that it endures is evidence. But I wouldn't argue that it achieves anything that isn't also achieved by other means.

 

[ibilly99]

Is it an early, since discarded, logo for the, then more extreme, Automobile Association?

who will have an epic final battle with the RAC for the twisted hearts and minds of the coming satanic carmaggedon.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Back to criticisms - only muslims are allowed to visit Mecca - entry is banned to non-believers which seems a bit sectarian to my kuffir mind.

There's a great story about a chap called Richard Burton (not that one) who disguised himself as a Muslim, with a comprehensive backstory, in order to experience the Hajj pilgrimage back in the 19th century. He was also an explorer, an exceptional linguist and in his later years a strong critic of British colonial policy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Francis_Burton

 

[ibilly99]

I can't post the Roy version until he's cleared his name..




bring on the fatwa

These yanks even like to have a go at the Buddha along with every other faith and sect that ain't his own.

 

[Pickman's model]

People reporting what they feel is widely considered evidence in health studies. And also that it endures is evidence. But I wouldn't argue that it achieves anything that isn't also achieved by other means.

yes. but all you've done is not even present anecdotal evidence but say 'there must be something in it if people have been doing it for so long'. why must there be something in it if people have been doing it for so long? where is the xian god, who one might feel from the evidence of the auld testament - let alone the new - took something of an interest in the matters of the world?

 

[Dr Jon]

I'm really not comfortable with the way you approach the crit man.
*snip*

George Carlin eloquently described religion as "just stupid shit that people made up".
Those gullible enough to take this backward, superstitious nonsense seriously deserve to have the piss taken.

 

[SpookyFrank]

George Carlin eloquently described religion as "just stupid shit that people made up".
Those gullible enough to take this backward, superstitious nonsense seriously deserve to have the piss taken.

I would say that the stupid shit people believe in should be fair game, but not the people who believe in it. Obviously if you're told from day one that (insert stupid shit here) is the way of things and that's that, and that those who think otherwise spend eternity in hell, then stupid shit can seem pretty convincing.

Play the ball, not the man. The exception of course being preachers who cherry pick from their respective religions for the sake of some agenda or other, for example Muslim clerics who ignore islam's doctrines of charity, hospitality and respect in favour of a load of fire and brimstone rubbish they've pulled out of their arses; or Catholic priests who think that their proximity to god excuses them from the fairly basic moral obligation to refrain from molesting children.

Good people will turn their religion, or lack of same, into a justification for being good people. Cunts will use their religion or lack of same (yes you Dawkins) as an excuse to be cunts. The worrying part is when people never get the chance to be good because they're never permitted to even entertain the idea that, say, women and men should have equal rights. But even this is not the work of religion but the work of cunts who call themselves religious.

 

[likesfish]

Mosque and individual muslims off limits.
Dont have to like someones your beliefs but you dont have to be a cunt about it.

 

[Pickman's model]

Mosque and individual muslims off limits.
Dont have to like someones your beliefs but you dont have to be a cunt about it.

why this for islam and, perhaps, a different attitude to e.g. fascists, tories?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, martyrdom in that way I agree exists in Christianity (my mistake for not thinking about that) I was reading up on it just now [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_martyrs ] , but I don't hear it being used today as a Christian recruiting tool to bring young people to war like it does within Islam and their virgins where you always hear of recruitment pressures, come and be a martyr, or this or that martyrdom operation etc.

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places. Others have already mentioned the LRA.
As for the "72 virgins" supposed "recruitment tool", how many times have you heard it mentioned by Muslims, rather than by commentators?
As for "recruitment pressures", you're talking shite. People fighting in an asymmetric war don't want reluctant recruits or people who're easily-led/gullible, they want psychologically-robust people who won't go to pieces when the shit hits the fan. There's been some excellent research on failed suicide bombers that have shown that the vast majority of them were rational, had taken up arms as a rational choice, and that "martyrdom" didn't matter to them, achieving a political goal did.

 

[likesfish]

Probably because you often dont get to choose your religion although if your going going to be all chourady about it your fair game.

 

[8ball]

There's been some excellent research on failed suicide bombers that have shown that the vast majority of them were rational, had taken up arms as a rational choice, and that "martyrdom" didn't matter to them, achieving a political goal did.

That's quite interesting, got a link?

 

[Spymaster]

Those gullible enough to take this backward, superstitious nonsense seriously deserve to have the piss taken.

Why? What's it to do with you what others believe?

If they're not aggressively evangelising, what's the problem?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Possibly because like me most are more comfortable criticizing Christianity perhaps because they don't know much about Islam (I certainly don't) or perhaps because they fear a Rushdie style fatwa!

The Rushdie fatwa was fuck-all to do with Islam, and everything to do with a single Muslim cleric, from the minor sect of Islam (and styling himself "Supreme Leader") taking it upon himself to pronounce for the whole of Islam. Khomeini's fatwa was repudiated by the majority of senior Muslim clerics and jurists.

 

[ViolentPanda]

That's quite interesting, got a link?

Didn't read it online, but if I can work out where I read it, I'll give you the pub. details.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The sword is generally recognised as a reference to division of ideologies.

Sometimes, to paraphrase Onkel Sigmund, a sword is just a sword.

 

[ViolentPanda]

so you think yer man was saying 'i come not to bring peace but division'

A single division?

He won't get far with that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's quite interesting, got a link?

Robert Pape Dying to win

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm honestly not trying to take the piss Pickman's model but I thought your avatar was you when you were a kid - A mate of mine's got a picture of her son in a cloth cap and old style clothes done in a faux-sepia way taken when he was about ten abd I thought your avatar was something similar.

TBF, Pickman's model only believes himself to be the Great Beast 666, AKA ALeister Crowley.
He's actually Victor Neuberg.

And I've no clue what that is.

The grand seal of the Argentum Astrum, an occult society founded by the Great Beast before he was the Great Beast.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Mosque and individual muslims off limits.
Dont have to like someones your beliefs but you dont have to be a cunt about it.

Yeah this basically. If nothing else being a cunt is not a good way to bring people round to your way of thinking, more likely they'll just think you're a cunt.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Perhaps you're looking in the wrong places. Others have already mentioned the LRA.
As for the "72 virgins" supposed "recruitment tool", how many times have you heard it mentioned by Muslims, rather than by commentators?
As for "recruitment pressures", you're talking shite. People fighting in an asymmetric war don't want reluctant recruits or people who're easily-led/gullible, they want psychologically-robust people who won't go to pieces when the shit hits the fan. There's been some excellent research on failed suicide bombers that have shown that the vast majority of them were rational, had taken up arms as a rational choice, and that "martyrdom" didn't matter to them, achieving a political goal did.

I'm not sure I can imagine myself becoming a suicide bmber to achieve a political goal, but for sheer revenge? Absolutely.

 

[8ball]

Robert Pape Dying to win

From the way propaganda from such groups is portrayed it would appear it is not really aimed at the right people.
That said, I'm not how far to trust portrayals of this material that come pre-digested.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm not sure I can imagine myself becoming a suicide bmber to achieve a political goal, but for sheer revenge? Absolutely.

As Pape points out, the modern wave of suicide bombing as a war tactic was started by a secular group, the Tamil Tigers.

It requires a sense of group identity such that you will put the needs of your group ahead of your personal needs. That can be provided by religion, patriotism or political ideology. In certain contexts - a soldier sacrificing himself in battle to save others - this is admired even in our culture.