Left conversion

[danny la rouge]

The left is rubbish. How do we make it better?

 

[GroovySunday]

I don't think it can be made to be better. I certainly don't think we should bother trying to improve it, that would be a waste of time. It is what it is and I very much think people should reject both left and right wing politics.

 

[cupid_stunt]

I read that as loft conversion.

 

[hitmouse]

While we're here, can anyone recommend a fastish estate?

 

[hitmouse]

Something something accelerationism.

 

[DotCommunist]

need to put down boards first. Lag the pipes.

 

[Silas Loom]

Lift conversions? Don’t talk to me about lift conversions. I chose my university because the library had a paternoster, in constant motion, that you had to leap from at a carefully judged point on your chosen floor, or risk being crushed at the apex. And then they replaced it with a staid button-operated model in the summer before I started.

 

[WouldBe]

need to put down boards first. Lag the pipes.

And use an architect. You don't want it falling apart not long after you've sorted it.

 

[hitmouse]

Lift conversions? Don’t talk to me about lift conversions. I chose my university because the library had a paternoster, in constant motion, that you had to leap from at a carefully judged point on your chosen floor, or risk being crushed at the apex. And then they replaced it with a staid button-operated model in the summer before I started.

I'm pretty sure Sheffield still has one, if you fancy doing a cheeky MA or similar.

 

[hitmouse]

If you've left your conversion somewhere and you don't know where it is, maybe try checking with your car docs?

 

[danny la rouge]

It is what it is and I very much think people should reject both left and right wing politics.

The trouble with saying things like that is that it’s also what the fash say.

 

[JimW]

Gerry Gable end.

 

[kebabking]

The left is rubbish. How do we make it better?

For me the lefts problem is that it will tolerate/embrace pretty much any old shit as long as the speaker/writer parrots - regardless of the dishonesty or cognitive disconnect involved - a couple of 70/80's slogans amongst the imperialism, anti-Semitism, and support for unutterably vile groups/regimes.

That you can call for and support the eradication of a culture, language and polity of 40m people at the hands of a murderous, fabulously corrupt, homophobic, racist dictatorship - but if you also think the trains should be nationalised, the 'left' will can you Comrade.

Just, the fuck?

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm pretty sure Sheffield still has one, if you fancy doing a cheeky MA or similar.

there was one at Leicester uni but it was put out of use in 2017, a final victory for the forces of health and safety

 

[JimW]

there was one at Leicester uni but it was put out of use in 2017, a final victory for the forces of health and safety

Are there stats for pater noster maimings and deaths?

 

[DotCommunist]

Are there stats for pater noster maimings and deaths?

Found this on paternoster wiki:
'Five people were killed by paternosters from 1970 to 1993. An 81-year-old man was killed in 2012 when he fell into the shaft. Old people, disabled people, and children are the most in danger of being crushed.'

they always looked well dicey to me

 

[Silas Loom]

There is a detailed and rigorously referenced account here of a paternoster-related death at Newcastle University, which considers various safety issues across these lift installations.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1243/PIME_PROC_1980_194_016_02

 

[JimW]

Is the name because you'd best pray?

 

[Silas Loom]

Is the name because you'd best pray?

The loop is reminiscent of rosary beads.

 

[ska invita]

That you can call for and support the eradication of a culture, language and polity of 40m people at the hands of a murderous, fabulously corrupt, homophobic, racist dictatorship - but if you also think the trains should be nationalised, the 'left' will can you Comrade.

Just, the fuck?

Who is calling for the eradication of who?

 

[RD2003]

For me the lefts problem is that it will tolerate/embrace pretty much any old shit as long as the speaker/writer parrots - regardless of the dishonesty or cognitive disconnect involved - a couple of 70/80's slogans amongst the imperialism, anti-Semitism, and support for unutterably vile groups/regimes.

That you can call for and support the eradication of a culture, language and polity of 40m people at the hands of a murderous, fabulously corrupt, homophobic, racist dictatorship - but if you also think the trains should be nationalised, the 'left' will can you Comrade.

Just, the fuck?

You're describing only one small, albeit vociferous, section of 'the left.'

Much of the radical left came to prioritise 'anti-imperiailsm' out of a distant (possibly subconscious in many cases) recognition that socialist revolution, and possibly any form of wide-ranging socialist reform, had slipped off the agenda, probably for good, in the capitalist heartlands. It often does involve tacit or even overt support for some dark forces, and the fact that if they succeed they are usually there to stay is brushed over or simply ignored ('the working class' will rise up against them eventually.) But it also arises from the fact that those dark forces are usually the only ones effectively resisting the havoc caused by western, and particularly US, interference all over the globe, especially when, nowadays, it is forgotten that it was liberal right (and soft left) regimes in the west that routinely supported and armed to the teeth 'fabulously corrupt, homophobic racist and anti-semitic dictatorships' in the name of anti-communism. That the liberals of right and left can now go around posing as the forces of liberation is particularly galling, particularly in those countries which were the targets of the despotism the west supported.

Neither the left nor the liberal right has really come to terms with the chaos of the post-Cold War world, both within their own societies and internationally, more than thirty years on even while this chaos was entirely predictable.

 

[Silas Loom]

Is the name because you'd best pray?

The principal religious significance of paternosters has changed, which is why they feature in the “lift conversions” thread.

These days, they make effective sabbath lifts, enabling orthodox Jews to transit between floors without breaching the rules by pressing buttons.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

Lift conversions? Don’t talk to me about lift conversions.

have an unconverted lift

 

[danny la rouge]

Despite the jokey title, I do actually want to talk about working class organisation if possible.

 

[Lord Camomile]

For me the lefts problem is that it will tolerate/embrace pretty much any old shit as long as the speaker/writer parrots - regardless of the dishonesty or cognitive disconnect involved - a couple of 70/80's slogans amongst the imperialism, anti-Semitism, and support for unutterably vile groups/regimes.

That you can call for and support the eradication of a culture, language and polity of 40m people at the hands of a murderous, fabulously corrupt, homophobic, racist dictatorship - but if you also think the trains should be nationalised, the 'left' will can you Comrade.

Just, the fuck?

While I would agree with at least some of this, it does prompt a couple of other, possibly contradictory, thoughts:

1. An accusation of the left is often that each faction is far too 'purist'. "If you don't agree with these 27 principles, along with 63 sub-clauses, then you're not one of us and we won't work with you". People's Front of Judea, 'n' all that.

whereas...

2. The right, or at least the capitalist right (separate from the outright fashy-fash) is a fare more flexible and, fundamentally, simple ideology. That makes it much easier to assimilate or integrate with other ideas and ideologies. "Does it make me money? Ok, then". As is often pointed out, up to a point capitalism doesn't care what you're buying as long as you're buying it from them.

All of which, to my ill-educated mind, just reinforces the issues with left/right distinction in general. As you say, if you can believe in nationalisation but also nationalism, how much help is a left/right binary to begin with?

There's every chance I've taken this too seriously, or not seriously enough

 

[Lord Camomile]

Despite the jokey title, I do actually want to talk about working class organisation if possible.

Are we talking about converting the left into something different from its current form, or converting people 'to the left'?

Obviously could be argued one is part of the other, from a certain angle.

 

[danny la rouge]

Are we talking about converting the left into something different from its current form, or converting people 'to the left'?

Obviously could be argued one is part of the other, from a certain angle.

I blame “the left” rather than our class, so it’s the former I’m looking at rather than the latter. I think “the left” (and what we mean by that is necessarily going to have to be part of the debate) has made itself irrelevant rather than that the working class is being obstinate.

So, yes, the left needs to be converted.

But don’t stress too much about the thread title: it’s a joke on the loft conversion thread. The subject matter is serious, though.

 

[PTK]

there was one at Leicester uni but it was put out of use in 2017, a final victory for the forces of health and safety

Why is everyone always so worried about the bloody elves? I don't give a toss about elven safety, or the safety of orcs, goblins or any other fantastic beings.

 

[SpookyFrank]

need to put down boards first. Lag the pipes.

The joists won't meet building regs for an occupied floor, they'll need replacing altogether.

 

[tim]

Larry O once converted Clare Fox to the Left, so maybe it's safer to leave things well alone.