Labour leadership

[butchersapron]

Oh come on. Labour delivered a lot of their manifesto post 97. Minimum wage etc against the same press that Corbyn faces today. How'd they do that? Play the game better than the papers did. Fuck all point in being idealogically pure if there's no sniff of power, other than smug points down the revolutionary council.

Most of the papers supported blair - like you - in 97.

 

[brogdale]

Oh come on. Labour delivered a lot of their manifesto post 97. Minimum wage etc against the same press that Corbyn faces today. How'd they do that? Play the game better than the papers did. Fuck all point in being idealogically pure if there's no sniff of power, other than smug points down the revolutionary council.

They did it by successfully convincing financialised capital that they could transition from debt state to consolidator state status more effectively than the tories...and they did.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Most of the papers supported blair - like you - in 97.

But how do you think that came about? The Sun only supported Labour because they were going to win anyway- Labour made the arguments, took the electorate with them, and to an extent Labour delivered.

 

[butchersapron]

But how do you think that came about? The Sun only supported Labour because they were going to win anyway- Labour made the arguments, took the electorate with them, and to an extent Labour delivered.

I don't care how it came about. You suggest that the shitty neo-liberal manifesto was implemented in the teeth of opposition from the papers. It wasn't. It was done with the support of those papers. Don't invent history.

(And the answer is by aligning your interests with those of the owners of the paper).

Are you really that desperate and angry that rather than attack those papers and the undemocratic manipulation of power that they engage in that you'd rather flail at some non-existent left than outline and challenge their behaviour? If so, grow up. Fucking hell, Blair as a good thing?

 

[butchersapron]

But how do you think that came about? The Sun only supported Labour because they were going to win anyway- Labour made the arguments, took the electorate with them, and to an extent Labour delivered.

Q. How do we get the sun and the mail and the express on on our side?

A. By doing what the sun the mail and the express want.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

consolidator state status

Hi brogdale, trying to research what this term means so I can learn something. Google's not much help - those words have other technical meanings that are different to what I suspect you intend. It's probably just my search history being unhelpful, help a brother out?

 

[gosub]

Hi brogdale, trying to research what this term means so I can learn something. Google's not much help - those words have other technical meanings that are different to what I suspect you intend. It's probably just my search history being unhelpful, help a brother out?

EU borrowing critera cap the amount States can be in debt. By getting into PFI meant they could spend more without breaking, switching from the debt to pay for a hospital to the debt for meeting the minimum payment terms for somebody else building (and owning a hospital)

 

[brogdale]

Hi brogdale, trying to research what this term means so I can learn something. Google's not much help - those words have other technical meanings that are different to what I suspect you intend. It's probably just my search history being unhelpful, help a brother out?

http://www.mpifg.de/pu/mpifg_dp/dp15-1.pdf
Once you get your head around the fact that the (consolidator) state acts as a mere 'sub-contractor' for rentier, financiaised capital it all falls into place.

e2a :

...in an era of financial deregulation and expansion, pressures for fiscal consolidation presented an opportunity for cutting back the state in favor of the private sector, by referring citizens to private credit as a substitute for previously free public services. Thus, financialization not only required fiscal retrenchment – to ensure the further creditworthiness of sovereign borrowers – it also made it possible, and with it the retrenchment of the state. As households indebted themselves to compensate for cuts in public provision, aided by low interest rates furnished by obliging central banks, they opened the door for the private sector to move into fields that had previously been the domain of government. They also filled the gap in aggregate demand caused by cuts in public spending – an effect referred to as “privatized Keynesianism” (Crouch 2009, 2011).6

 

[butchersapron]

EU borrowing critera cap the amount States can be in debt. By getting into PFI meant they could spend more without breaking, switching from the debt to pay for a hospital to the debt for meeting the minimum payment terms for somebody else building (and owning a hospital)

Check your chronology.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Q. How do we get the sun and the mail and the express on on our side?

A. By doing what the sun the mail and the express want.

There was no doubt a bit of that going on, but take my example of the minimum wage. That's a policy that directly went against the interests of the media owners, and yet at least The Sun came out for Blair (The Mail and the Express didn't, btw). It's not always the pols following the press.

 

[butchersapron]

There was no doubt a bit of that going on, but take my example of the minimum wage. That's a policy that directly went against the interests of the media owners, and yet at least The Sun came out for Blair (The Mail and the Express didn't, btw). It's not always the pols following the press.

Something whose impact they either supported or that didn't impact on their larger interests. They were backed to the hilt in their filthy agenda by the people that you say they faced opposition from.

 

[brogdale]

There was no doubt a bit of that going on, but take my example of the minimum wage. That's a policy that directly went against the interests of the media owners, and yet at least The Sun came out for Blair (The Mail and the Express didn't, btw). It's not always the pols following the press.

No it didn't. If corporations were to avoid paying any tax, their employees had to be able to fund the state for them.

 

[butchersapron]

Fucking hell, i can understand anger and desperation - but pimping blair? Isn't that spitting in the face of of all those people that you're being angry on behalf of? First act, an attack on single mothers - did they need to work to get the mail sun and express on side on that one?

 

[coley]

EU borrowing critera cap the amount States can be in debt. By getting into PFI meant they could spend more without breaking, switching from the debt to pay for a hospital to the debt for meeting the minimum payment terms for somebody else building (and owning a hospital)

Sort off funding infrastructure by going to wonga rather than making and implementing hard choices, raising taxes on the rich, introducing means testing for universal benefits?

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

http://www.mpifg.de/pu/mpifg_dp/dp15-1.pdf
Once you get your head around the fact that the (consolidator) state acts as a mere 'sub-contractor' for rentier, financiaised capital it all falls into place.

e2a :

​

Thanks brogdale, appreciated.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Fucking hell, i can understand anger and desperation - but pimping blair? Isn't that spitting in the face of of all those people that you're being angry on behalf of? First act, an attack on single mothers - did they need to work to get the mail sun and express on side on that one?

Hey don't get all drunk-rage at me. Where I grew up things like a min wage really seemed like a big deal at the time, so shove your smug self-satisfaction up your arse. Not everyone operates at your Olympian heights of theory

 

[butchersapron]

Hey don't get all drunk-rage at me. Where I grew up things like a min wage really seemed like a big deal at the time, so shove your smug self-satisfaction up your arse. Not everyone operates at your Olympian heights of theory

Where did you grow up that i didn't? I've never, not once, earned a single penny above min wage. The min wage made damn sure of that. I've responded to your nonsense that blair faced opposition to his neoliberal attacks from the papers - just not true - and have suggested that you're firing your canons at the wrong target (based at least on you doing so as regards what actually happened in the past). Haven't been rude or -drunk-raged.

 

[agricola]

This week has shown that to be rhetoric unfortunately. The Ken Livingstone appointment, A Corbyn placeman inserted without telling any of the MP's with an interest in defense....The shot to kill u=turn, coz that was a u-turn not an out of context misrepresentation. McDonnell's Mi5 fiasco.....I agree he isn't getting a fair crack of the whip, though the absurdity of what they were throwing at him in weeks previous probably helped him, now the sniping is getting on target.

Shoot to kill wasn't a u-turn; what that term means (in counter-terror terms anyway) is well established and the reason why the clarification was required was because people were (and are) going around claiming it meant something else (which is unforgivable, given the events of ten years ago). The Livingstone appointment was mishandled however, they should have put him to work on housing policy where his record in London would have been of a lot of use and the inevitable backlash would have looked stupid.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Where did you grow up that i didn't? I've never, not once, earned a single penny above min wage. The min wage made damn sure of that. I've responded to your nonsense that blair faced opposition to his neoliberal attacks from the papers - just not true - and have suggested that you're firing your canons at the wrong target (based at least on you doing so as regards what actually happened in the past). Haven't been rude or -drunk-raged.

Ach, sorry. I'm a bit pished myself, and fed up. Like I said earlier, just venting.

 

[butchersapron]

Ach, sorry. I'm a bit pished myself, and fed up. Like I said earlier, just venting.

No worries.

 

[brogdale]

Ach, sorry. I'm a bit pished myself, and fed up. Like I said earlier, just venting.

Save the Streeck for another day, then...those graphs will start to rotate before your eyes!

 

[gosub]

Shoot to kill wasn't a u-turn; what that term means (in counter-terror terms anyway) is well established and the reason why the clarification was required was because people were (and are) going around claiming it meant something else (which is unforgivable, given the events of ten years ago). The Livingstone appointment was mishandled however, they should have put him to work on housing policy where his record in London would have been of a lot of use and the inevitable backlash would have looked stupid.

the media interview asked him whether he accepted shoot to kill repeated coz that was the soundbite they wanted, he decided he talk about the problems it raises. Then he puts out a facebook saying it was out of context and of course needs must... It wasn't out of context, and if it was so obvious why didn't he say it at the time. Coz it was a u turn, after a disastrous PLP meeting. A better non committal skirt around would have been, "if there were lessons to be learned from Paris (there are, the gig shootings were a game changer) we will look at them"

 

[brogdale]

the media interview asked him whether he accepted shoot to kill repeated coz that was the soundbite they wanted, he decided he talk about the problems it raises. Then he puts out a facebook saying it was out of context and of course needs must... It wasn't out of context, and if it was so obvious why didn't he say it at the time. Coz it was a u turn, after a disastrous PLP meeting. A better non committal skirt around would have been, "if there were lessons to be learned from Paris (there are, the gig shootings were a game changer) we will look at them"

Really? Do we have to do this again?
Corbyn specifically rejected a "policy" of shoot to kill, which accords with the extant law.

 

[TheHoodedClaw]

Save the Streeck for another day, then...those graphs will start to rotate before your eyes!

The word "Streeck" in your post is already going in and out of phase...

 

[agricola]

the media interview asked him whether he accepted shoot to kill repeated coz that was the soundbite they wanted, he decided he talk about the problems it raises. Then he puts out a facebook saying it was out of context and of course needs must... It wasn't out of context, and if it was so obvious why didn't he say it at the time. Coz it was a u turn, after a disastrous PLP meeting. A better non committal skirt around would have been, "if there were lessons to be learned from Paris (there are, the gig shootings were a game changer) we will look at them"

That would have been a nonsense statement, though. Of the Paris attacks, all of the shooters would probably have been engaged by British firearms units in the same circumstances without any kind of change of policy and the suicide bombers would probably have blown themselves up as planned anyway (as at the restaurant) or when they were discovered (as at the first Park de Princes site) or when things had gone wrong (as at the other attack sites).

If he should have said anything, it is that no change in the law is needed at all.

 

[gosub]

That would have been a nonsense statement, though. Of the Paris attacks, all of the shooters would probably have been engaged by British firearms units in the same circumstances without any kind of change of policy and the suicide bombers would probably have blown themselves up as planned anyway (as at the restaurant) or when they were discovered (as at the first Park de Princes site) or when things had gone wrong (as at the other attack sites).

If he should have said anything, it is that no change in the law is needed at all.

No they wouldn't. What has/will change as it did in Paris (on the night) was contain and negotiate, as initially instigated at Bataclan. That is the prism Paris is being look at through.

Beyond that Labour MP's will have told him when they looked at doing the SO19 officers over de Menzies, for what was a failure several layers removed, the whole lot threatened to walk. Hence the row back.

But yes, I agree. No change in the law is needed. Or in the offing.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Floppy haired toff Borish (that was actually a typing error, but I'm gonna keep it) Johnson most popular politician in the ConRes poll. That has been the case for some time and it makes me want to gouge my own eyeballs out. I have the horrible feeling he's gonna be next primo.

 

[DrRingDing]

Floppy haired toff Borish (that was actually a typing error, but I'm gonna keep it) Johnson most popular politician in the ConRes poll. That has been the case for some time and it makes me want to gouge my own eyeballs out. I have the horrible feeling he's gonna be next primo.

Corbyn Vs Johnson

Corbyn's bound to lose.

 

[killer b]

Every boorishly definite pronouncement you make on the topic makes a landslide corbyn victory seem more certain, ringding

 

[Pickman's model]

No they wouldn't. What has/will change as it did in Paris (on the night) was contain and negotiate, as initially instigated at Bataclan. That is the prism Paris is being look at through.

Beyond that Labour MP's will have told him when they looked at doing the SO19 officers over de Menzies, for what was a failure several layers removed, the whole lot threatened to walk. Hence the row back.

But yes, I agree. No change in the law is needed. Or in the offing.

yeh. but it wouldn't take a genius to see that if this was in future portrayed as 'police threaten to go on strike to support right to kill anyone they like' it might not play too well even among the hang 'em flog 'em middle englanders.