Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[frogwoman]

[/QUOTE]
Oh I dunno.

Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did. And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.

But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.

Yeah I mean I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong but a brief look at some of what was on the website plus the bits quoted wasn't encouraging.

 

[rummo]

'I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong'

##

Fair play to you for being prepared to at least entertain the possibility.

I do think you've got him wrong, at least from what I've read of his.

 

[Knotted]

I think he understands antisemitism very well tbh

I think so too. I also don't think he's a Corbyn/Labour stan (not that he's saying he is).

 

[danny la rouge]

It is directly relevant to my point about the class composition of the British Jewish population and how it impacts on voting intentions, which was disputed by others.

I think you’re mistaken about what the dispute is over.

 

[Pickman's model]

Most of what he says looks well researched and sane to me, tho I can’t blame anyone for dismissing anyone quoted by the knob who did. And that article was far too brief and vague to seriously back up what he was saying.

But, as with arguing whether Corbyn really had 6 or 10% of the Jewish vote in 2019, it misses the point, at best, or at worst, is used to justify a crude an old fashioned explicit racism.

tbh i am less than persuaded by things like this

that yer man says (https://www.jpr.org.uk/documents/JPR.2017.Antisemitism_in_contemporary_Great_Britain.pdf, p14)

it's like the bnp never took hundreds of thousands of votes, like the edl never happened, like fascists never killed an mp. seems to me that while the report may be a contribution, even a very useful contribution, it's not something to be blindly relied upon.

 

[frogwoman]

I think so too. I also don't think he's a Corbyn/Labour stan (not that he's saying he is).

very possibly.

 

[Knotted]

I'm wary about talk of Jewish particularism as opposed to leftist universalism. I'm never quite sure what it means and failing to recognise Jewish particularism does not seem to be a characteristic of actual contemporary antisemitism (left wing or otherwise). I also don't care for the related theory that left wing antisemitism originated in Stalinist Russia.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm wary about talk of Jewish particularism as opposed to leftist universalism. I'm never quite sure what it means and failing to recognise Jewish particularism does not seem to be a characteristic of actual contemporary antisemitism (left wing or otherwise). I also don't care for the related theory that left wing antisemitism originated in Stalinist Russia.

another thing in that report was i couldn't find a definition of far left (or far right for that matter), despite the term being liberally sprinkled within it. for some jeremy corbyn would be far left, for others leninist or trotskyist organisations.

 

[rummo]

We all know who Alf garnett is, but some of us can manage to actually take a second glance and realise that it isn’t him, it’s a bunch of anti-Semitic stereotypes. The fact that you are still disputing this fact leads me (and everyone else) to surmise that you are not serious about understanding, let alone tackling, the changing nature of anti-semitism.

I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.

And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared

As I understand it I believe the artist denies any anti Semitic intent, and that the bankers were supposed to be caricatures of actual named 19th century individuals three of whom were Jewish and three who weren't.

So the idea that it is now an establish fact that the mural was anti Semitic is perhaps open to question. I think it more accurate to say that many people regarded it as anti Semitic.

Interesting take on it though from the JC.


'Mear One says his mural was about class, not race, but this is no excuse. Antisemitism has always had a left-wing version that fingered Jewish capitalists as the enemy of the good. Saying rich Jews are a class enemy is no less vile than saying they are a racial one.'


I've always taken the view that the rich are a class enemy, irrespective of whether they're Jewish or not, but I'm not sure that's the view that's being expressed there.

 

[frogwoman]

Knotted the two aren't mutually exclusive as I've discovered but...yes.

 

[belboid]

Yeah I mean I'm willing to say i might have got it wrong but a brief look at some of what was on the website plus the bits quoted wasn't encouraging.

Absolutely, I can’t blame you at all, especially when presented in that way. The amount of spurious bullshit pulled up and excused by ‘but he’s Jewish!’ is yet another infuriating and


But I can also well understand the views and frustrations of people - who do recognise and reject the use of such ‘tropes’ and don’t defend idiots like Greenstein - who are mad at the number of Jews being suspended for anti-semitism, or at them being barred from discussing or supporting the Big Bike Ride for Palestine, or at similar islamophobic or anti-traveller tropes and language being ignored, or many of the other ways the issue is used dishonestly.

it is, in no small part, the nature of defeat. Looking at who to blame rather than what, differing factions trying to save/destroy any remnants of ‘corbynism’. Nothing short of hari kari will satisfy the right, the left have nowhere to go and not much to say.

I’m rambling now, sorry. At some point, relatively soon, there will need to be a proper response at how it should all have been dealt with, for now it is all still too painful and bitter and I don’t think we’ll seriously make any progress.

something something nature of reformism and the impossibility thereof

 

[killer b]

I've been reading these pages and thinking for the past few days. It seems to me that it's easy when you feel under siege to lapse into emotional reasoning; that has lead to the centering of the damage to the Labour left rather than to damage to Jewish people in my mind, and I think many minds, at times. That needs to stop.

But I still have no idea of any constructive way forward, given where we are. And how people still within the party can do that properly and also deal with what's happening now. I know lots of people on here don't give a shit about what happens to the Labour Party, and it's a position I'm not unsympathetic to, but many on here are members or care, and in that position, what to do?

Following the collapse of the Corbyn leadership, this is a live problem for the entire wider left (it always was tbf) as activists abandon Labour and move on to other campaigns. A line of attack which has been so fruitful will doubtless be levelled against any and all movements that come next, and there needs to be a better response next time - both in making sure these kinds of currents aren't welcome, and faster action when they're discovered already lodged there.

There was some noises made in recent years about political education on this topic, which is still badly needed (and as far as I'm aware beyond a few quite good videos last year, not much movement - covid has disrupted things though I suppose).

As Danny said above though, there seems recently to be some movement here on Urban about it. One of the big psychological barriers to people being able to look at this clearly - the fact of Corbyn's leadership, and the need to defend it - is gone. I'm sure if there's movement here, there will be movement elsewhere as people let go of that. Keep chipping away.

 

[belboid]

I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.

And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared

As I understand it I believe the artist denies any anti Semitic intent, and that the bankers were supposed to be caricatures of actual named 19th century individuals three of whom were Jewish and three who weren't.

So the idea that it is now an establish fact that the mural was anti Semitic is perhaps open to question. I think it more accurate to say that many people regarded it as anti Semitic.

Interesting take on it though from the JC.


'Mear One says his mural was about class, not race, but this is no excuse. Antisemitism has always had a left-wing version that fingered Jewish capitalists as the enemy of the good. Saying rich Jews are a class enemy is no less vile than saying they are a racial one.'


I've always taken the view that the rich are a class enemy, irrespective of whether they're Jewish or not, but I'm not sure that's the view that's being expressed there.

I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again. All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.

consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered. Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.

 

[Knotted]

I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.

And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared

This stuff is shits and giggles. Was doing a similar thing when butchers asked him whether he disputed what Corbyn said. Fuck this guy.

 

[Knotted]

I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again. All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.

consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered. Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.

TBH waffling on about your first reaction four years later and then waffling on about Alf Garnett isn't even repeating a rote statement. It's deliberate time wasting and a declaration that he just doesn't give a shit about antisemitism anyway. Not blind to it, he just doesn't care. Fuck this guy.

 

[killer b]

If there's one thing we can all get behind, it's surely Fuck This Guy.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm not suggesting it was Alf Garnet. Just that he looks like him. And that conditioned how I viewed the mural ie imagining what Alf Garnet would have said about it.

And while you may know who Alf Garnet is, you probably wouldn't appreciate the cultural impact of the character unless you were around when he first appeared

As I understand it I believe the artist denies any anti Semitic intent, and that the bankers were supposed to be caricatures of actual named 19th century individuals three of whom were Jewish and three who weren't.

So the idea that it is now an establish fact that the mural was anti Semitic is perhaps open to question. I think it more accurate to say that many people regarded it as anti Semitic.

Interesting take on it though from the JC.


'Mear One says his mural was about class, not race, but this is no excuse. Antisemitism has always had a left-wing version that fingered Jewish capitalists as the enemy of the good. Saying rich Jews are a class enemy is no less vile than saying they are a racial one.'


I've always taken the view that the rich are a class enemy, irrespective of whether they're Jewish or not, but I'm not sure that's the view that's being expressed there.

if you knew anything about alf garnett you'd surely know how to spell his name

 

[rummo]

I really cba to go through all the things that are wrong with that fucking mural yet again. All I would say is - do you not think we have already discussed it at length? Maybe have a look back over the thread (or some of the others) to see how your argument has been made several times before.

consider, for a second, how arrogant it looks to come in to a long, complex, discussion, just to repeat some rote statement that has already been well covered. Consider that and you’ll get one of the reasons why people are giving you such short shrift.

Please accept my apologies for interrupting your private discussion.

Obviously I've mistakenly thought this was a public forum.

That mural is of next to no importance in itself though the reaction to it and how one view has become the only acceptable dogma is interesting.

There's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink which maybe suggests that you could do with some freshening up.

 

[frogwoman]

I don't give a fuck about john mann or any of those. I've got nothing to do with it. For what it's worth I think those guys have acted appallingly, and their main aims have transparently been just to get their faction back in and 'save the party'. Some of their statements before and since prove they don't give a fuck.

It would be nice if we could have our experiences listened to without having to discuss why Ian Austin and John Mann are awful and wrong first though. I could provide a list of incidents I've directly experienced and none of it had anything to do with john mann.

 

[JimW]

here's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink

The perennial bleat of the man so plainly wrong even a set of diverse posters all share the same opinion of his bullshit.

 

[Pickman's model]

The perennial bleat of the man so plainly wrong even a set of diverse posters all share the same opinion of his bullshit.

more of a whine than a bleat

 

[belboid]

Please accept my apologies for interrupting your private discussion.

Obviously I've mistakenly thought this was a public forum.

That mural is of next to no importance in itself though the reaction to it and how one view has become the only acceptable dogma is interesting.

There's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink which maybe suggests that you could do with some freshening up.

lol, you have no idea. But you’re also just coming in and repeating tedious old shite, that everyone else on here has already discussed ad infinitum. If you’re think you simply repeating it will be of any value, you’re more than a tad arrogant. You don’t freshen things up by adding stale ingredients.

 

[bimble]

Just clicked on your name rummo and it looks like about 95% of your posts since you joined this website are about jews & antisemitism. If there’s a point that you want to get across, about this whole subject that’s clearly massively important to you, the key Truth that you want everyone to understand, can you say what it is?

 

[frogwoman]

Just clicked on your name rummo and it looks like about 95% of your posts since you joined this website are about jews & antisemitism. If there’s a point that you want to get across, about this whole subject that’s clearly massively important to you, the key Truth that you want everyone to understand, can you say what it is?

(((Connect the dots)))

 

[rummo]

I've found the reaction to Staetsky to be interesting.

Posters who clearly knew absolutely nothing about him or his work piling in to dismiss and insult him.

Likewise Stephen Solley.

Fascinating.

 

[frogwoman]

Does it start with n and end with t with the letters s and c somewhere as well?

 

[Pickman's model]

Does it start with n and end with t with the letters s and c somewhere as well?

a? i i!

 

[danny la rouge]

There's clearly a propensity on here towards groupthink which maybe suggests that you could do with some freshening up

You think so? Remember when those soldiers were using a Corbyn picture for target practice? I had an exchange with a long term poster - Sasaferrato - who assumed my criticism of those boneheads meant I was a Corbyn fan. He couldn’t see that serving soldiers shooting a likeness of the leader of the opposition (whoever that might be) was something to be concerned about.

You haven’t bothered finding out about us. But you seem very, very interested in the Jews. Which is, you know, a bit weird. Try widening your interests. We also discuss the Wire.

 

[Pickman's model]

You think so? Remember when those soldiers were using a Corbyn picture for target practice? I had an exchange with a long term poster - Sasaferrato - who assumed my criticism of those boneheads meant I was a Corbyn fan. He couldn’t see that serving soldiers shooting a likeness of the leader of the opposition (whoever that might be) was something to be concerned about.

You haven’t bothered finding out about us. But you seem very, very interested in the Jews. Which is, you know, a bit weird. Try widening your interests. We also discuss the Wire.

and kittens

 

[Shechemite]

McNulty did have a habit of calling lawyers a ‘twisted little tribe’