Labour & Anti-Semitism.

[danny la rouge]

Yes he did. He said it in a context. As I've already said.

But as I've also said it's a more accurate description of the essence of anti Semitism than one which allows Stephen Solley to be accused of being an anti Semite.

Yeah, I don’t know who that is. Not really bothered about finding out either.

But I’m assuming he’s a critic of Israeli state policy and actions. Good, so he should be. And there is a point to be made that those critics and that criticism are indeed deliberately conflated with anti-semitism by those who wish to do that.

There is a danger in using quotes like the one you use, though. And that is that if you don’t each time clarify the context you run the risk of implying that All Jews are guilty of this conflation and that Antisemitism is no longer a valid concern. “Yeah, that’s not a thing. It’s just the way supporters of the Israeli state deflect criticism”.

And the thing with that is that actually on the left, too often criticism of the Israeli state does bleed into antisemitism. I’ve been around left wing activism for 40 years now, and I’ve seen it again and again. And I’ve seen well meaning activists innocently pick up antisemitic tropes.

It does not help anyone to pretend that doesn’t happen. It does. And if it didn’t it would be far easier for Labour to have extracted itself from the faction driven mess it got its self into.

I don’t believe in the parliamentary road to socialism. I don’t believe the Labour Party will ever be a vehicle for the working class to hold the levers of power. So I’m bored with their inept splashing around in various gutters taking up so much energy and focus.

But ffs, even with the chicken coup mark II stirring this all up again, the way out of this for the Labour “left” is to have some fucking clarity and honesty. And a extract itself from the “internationalist”, statist, my-enemy’s-enemy-is-my-friend mire it’s been playing in.

 

[rummo]

'There is a danger in using quotes like the one you use, though. And that is that if you don’t each time clarify the context you run the risk of implying that All Jews are guilty of this conflation and that Antisemitism is no longer a valid concern. “Yeah, that’s not a thing. It’s just the way supporters of the Israeli state deflect criticism”.'

###

Agreed. Though posting the quote on page 146 or whatever on a thread entitled Labour & Anti Semitism I think I'm entitled to assume that those being engaged have some understanding of the context and background (though I'll admit that it isn't always evident) so the danger is probably vanishingly small.

I've been in and around far left politics longer than you and I've seldom seen any conflation between anti Zionism and anti Semitism and what I have seen of it has been from the inexperienced and confused still finding their way.

'The faction driven mess' that you mention didn't just happen though. It was instigated and driven by those opposed to Corbyn and what he represents and the weaponisaton of anti Semitism for factional reasons lies at their door.

 

[killer b]

I've been in and around far left politics longer than you and I've seldom seen any conflation between anti Zionism and anti Semitism and what I have seen of it has been from the inexperienced and confused still finding their way.

yeah, you almost never see that.

That border seems to be getting pushed further and further every day, more and more territory being annexed and occupied.

It's almost like a metaphor.

 

[bimble]

I was hoping rummo was young. If he’s so old that he’s even older than danny I think there’s no point even trying tbh.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Bigotry is bad but ageism is fine?

Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.

 

[killer b]

I think there’s no point even trying tbh.

I'm wondering about this. We've been having this same argument for 5 years, longer, and we've still not got past the point of 'please recognise that there is a problem'. How long do we have to keep explaining the same thing - as Danny has done with exceptional clarity just up there (and not for the first time) - only for it to be ignored, explained away, talked past. I've no idea where we go from here.

 

[two sheds]

Is anyone saying there is/was no problem at all? I thought we were arguing about the scale of it.

 

[killer b]

What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh, not how big the problem is.

 

[bimble]

I feel like there is much more of a point in real life, actual conversations with faces can make people have new thoughts. Like my driving instructor a while back, who in the end said he'd not be going around telling everyone about the rothschilds anymore cos he didn't realise jews could be just normal people, hadn't met one before. On here, on the internet, or any written format, i don't know tbh.

 

[two sheds]

I'd be happy with talking about how to prevent it too, but then your previous post was:

I'm wondering about this. We've been having this same argument for 5 years, longer, and we've still not got past the point of 'please recognise that there is a problem'. How long do we have to keep explaining the same thing - as Danny has done with exceptional clarity just up there (and not for the first time) - only for it to be ignored, explained away, talked past. I've no idea where we go from here.

i.e. saying that posters don't recognize that there's even a problem, which isn't true (as far as I'm aware).

Ok from now on lets concentrate on how we combat it.

 

[Treacle Toes]

What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh, not how big the problem is.

In some ways you can't do one without the other IMO. I think people are desperate to understand the scale of the problem and to put an end to the recognisable exaggerations to be able to combat it.

 

[two sheds]

In one way the pure focus of the thread being on the labour party prevents talking about it without suggesting that it's purely a problem within the labour party. The discussion would be better in a general thread on combatting antisemitism.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I've been in and around left politics for yonks too and have never come across anti-semitism from fellow lefty politicos during that time. The exact opposite, racism of any kind has (nearly) always been condemned. I have come across variants of anti-semitism from the far right, from conservatives, from non political people and from lefty/hippie types who are not politically active. So that either tells us that people like me are liars, inattentive, naive or some such, or that our individual experiences are actually real and valid. That experience and perception of anti semitism are not the same everywhere at all times. Perhaps some parts of the country or some sectors of the population are more prone to to prejudice or less attuned to perceived insult. The same may well be true for other groups. When I was growing up in London I occasionally came across anti Irish sentiment, but I found that more prevalent when I was briefly up in Geordie land in the 1970's. I encountered anti Welsh sentiment for the first time in Bristol in the 1990's, which I wasn't expecting at all. Nowadays everyone seems to love the Irish, but again I'm sure others may see things differently.
Where does that leave us? Our understanding of the scale of the problem of any kind of racism is maybe much more subjective than we realise?

 

[bimble]

I've been in and around left politics for yonks too and have never come across anti-semitism from fellow lefty politicos during that time.

I have come across variants of anti-semitism from .. lefty/hippie types who are not politically active.

So is it being a 'lefty politico' rather than just a 'lefty type' that's the key? How odd.
Do people stop being antisemites by getting more politically active or do those lefty types who have antisemitic tendencies just not get involved in whatever you class as politics.

 

[butchersapron]

I encountered anti Welsh sentiment for the first time in Bristol in the 1990's, which I wasn't expecting at all.

Really? Not you seeing it, but you not realising it exists quite strongly in bristol/n somerset? From shitty tired jokes to actual physical attacks. Always been a thing.

 

[tim]

Bigotry is bad but ageism is fine?

Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.

Who's being ageist? danny la rouge who is around my age has made frequent comments about his advanced/advancing age elsewhere. rummo, who I suspect is tin-eared as well as old, boasts about decades of activism, exceeding even the those of Danny, free from the taint of anti-Semitic utterances.

I also suspect that bimble is no spring-chicken.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Really? Not you seeing it, but you not realising it exists quite strongly in bristol/n somerset? From shitty tired jokes to actual physical attacks. Always been a thing.

No, I didn't realise it. I grew up in South London. Not next door to Wales. That proximity makes a big difference.

 

[Plumdaff]

I have been around lefty politics for years, and I have seen anti semitism, running the whole gamut from clumsy and muddled speech and thinking to the rabidly racist variety. For that reason for much of the last few years I was firmly convinced that the main problem was that the left was denying the extent of the problem and needed to engage in massive self reflection and serious efforts to identify, educate or expel from the Labour Party and other left forums.

The thing is, I think largely that's what happened. Bar one voice on here no one is arguing there's no problem or that it's not serious. But the answer comes, It isn't enough. Within Labour flawed but serious efforts were made, not enough. EHRC report, not enough. I'm not in the party but have friends and a partner involved and I know what they said and did. I spent time arguing with them to do more, I started from the perspective that Labour hadn't done enough. Then the Labour leaks reports came out. Then the EHRC report came out.

I now, honestly, think I was naive. I now believe no effort to overcome antisemitism will be enough to satisfy a core extreme centrist wing of the party and Establishment (I don't believe anyone here meets that description). I do believe good faith anti racist efforts are being exploited by an effort to eradicate left politics from the discourse. Not being in Labour/the parliamentary left isn't going to be enough to spare anyone from this.

I think the problem is "there's a problem, and it's being polarised and exaggerated for political ends" isn't the same as "there's no problem". I think "there's a problem and we need to combat it and also think carefully about how to combat the exaggeration and polarisation" isn't the same as "let's do nothing, it's fine". But I feel maybe that's what's being heard by people that (in some, probably many) cases we'd otherwise largely agree on many things. And at this point I'd like any conversation about where to go to try to square that circle, lessen that polarisation, because I have no clue how to do it and it's fucking depressing.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

So is it being a 'lefty politico' rather than just a 'lefty type' that's the key? How odd.
Do people stop being antisemites by getting more politically active or do those lefty types who have antisemitic tendencies just not get involved in whatever you class as politics.

Thanks for forensically analysing my post so helpfully. What I was implying, rightly or wrongly, was that the more political you are the less likely you are to fall for e.g. 9/11 conspiracy theories involving Jews and/or Israel. Maybe that's because activists are more likely to read more, acquire more historical and political knowledge and hopefully some understanding. Whereas those who just have opinions and vote every 5 years are perhaps more likely to fall for any old crack.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Who's being ageist? danny la rouge who is around my age has made frequent comments about his advanced/advancing age elsewhere. rummo, who I suspect is tin-eared as well as old, boasts about decades of activism, exceeding even the those of Danny, free from the taint of anti-Semitic utterances.

I also suspect that bimble is no spring-chicken.

The idea that someone is too old to 'learn' is a petty ageist denigration. It's been said more that once on this thread. That do you?

 

[ska invita]

What I'd like to be talking about it how to combat it tbh

Here's a start:
1. Do the exact opposite of what Starmer is doing, which has the additional side effect of meaning some people can excuse this as solely a political witchhunt and ignore/sideline antisemitism as an issue
2. Follow the EHRC report, which against leads back to #1 of not making up the rules like a tinpot dictator

 

[rummo]

I cut my political teeth in the International Socialists, an organisation founded, and pretty much run, by a stateless, anti Zionist, Palestinian Jew who had lost family in the Holocaust. I flatter myself that in that milieu I managed to grasp the difference between anti Semitism and opposition to Zionism relatively quickly. But thanks for all the guidance anyway. I'm sure it's well intentioned.

The issue isn't whether there is anti Semitism in the Labour Party. The issue is the extent of it.

Is it so extensive that a Corbyn led government would have represented 'an existential threat to Jewish life in this country'?

Or is the level of anti Semitism in the Labour Party lower than in society at large or in other political parties? In which case, why the focus on the Labour Party? What's the agenda?

 

[killer b]

It's a pretty binary choice you've given us there Rummo. As you know, it's neither of those things.

 

[belboid]

In which case, why the focus on the Labour Party?

I dunno, but I reckon Labour supposedly being the party that most strongly opposes racism and had brought in the key anti-discrimination laws into being, might have something to do with it.

And if you were in the IS all that time, you will often have come across arguments about the 'jewish lobby' over the years, or the 'Israeli lobby' if they were a little more sussed. I can point you to umpteen articles on it, why would Harman have bothered if it wasn't a thing?

 

[danny la rouge]

Bigotry is bad but ageism is fine?

Not the first time being older has been used to denigrate or as some kind of 'handicap' on this thread.

I brought up my own age. I often do. These are all my own teeth.

 

[danny la rouge]

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the “well I’ve never seen it” brigade. I wonder whether you’ve never seen it or never noticed it.

 

[killer b]

I’m not sure I’m convinced by the “well I’ve never seen it” brigade. I wonder whether you’ve never seen it or never noticed it.

Not even that, it's denial not ignorance. And such long term denial, a refusal to even consider what's right there in front of you, for years on end... what can you call that?

 

[danny la rouge]

Not even that, it's denial not ignorance. And such long term denial, a refusal to even consider what's right there in front of you, for years on end... what can you call that?

Agreed. Don’t want to notice it.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Here's a start:
1. Do the exact opposite of what Starmer is doing, which has the additional side effect of meaning some people can excuse this as solely a political witchhunt and ignore/sideline antisemitism as an issue
2. Follow the EHRC report, which against leads back to #1 of not making up the rules like a tinpot dictator

People can excuse this as a political witch-hunt because that’s the line that Corbyn has used. That’s the problem.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I brought up my own age. I often do. These are all my own teeth.

No one has suggested you can't learn because of your age or that no one should bother with trying to have this conversation with you because of your age like they have about Corbyn and rummo though. So my post wasn't about you.