Kicking Off In Tottenham

[faux pas]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/fed-residents-form-anti-looter-patrols-062625198.html

Look at these wankers trying to protect their lives, livelihoods and homes. What a bunch of retards! How dare they fight back and try to protect themselves. What misguided aggressive fucktards!

 

[belboid]

you're not exactly the brightest button in the box are you?

 

[faux pas]

you're not exactly the brightest button in the box are you?

I thought you had taken off to read 'English Grammar For Dummies'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Good article here, oddly enough not from the BBC

That is a good article ...

The profusion of images that modern technology generates makes it even more difficult to impose a single meaning on a complex event. Those who live in terror of a feral underclass and those who are worried about the impact of fiscal austerity on vulnerable communities can find material online that confirms their world-view. There will be a fierce conflict in the weeks ahead as politicians, commentators and others seek to frame the events of the last few days in ways that serve their wider agenda. The police, for example, will call for increased budgets to deal with the increased risks of civil disorder. In this sense, too, riots are inescapably political events.

There are signs too that technology is allowing individuals to intervene in the process by which meaning is assigned to social events. When disorder broke out in France in 2005 in somewhat similar circumstances the political right was the major beneficiary. Sarkozy's rise from interior minister to president owed a great deal to his role in expressing the anxious aggression of a mass constituency that often lived far away from the burning cars and public buildings.

In London today people were on the streets tidying up the damage. The hashtag #riotcleanup on Twitter is being used by councils and residents to coordinate the work. The decision to act in this way, to make the streets a little more safe, to reclaim them for peaceful sociability, steps away from the temptation to condemn the violence or explain it in terms that inevitably simplify or distort it. Those who come together like this will be less likely to conclude that the country is on the verge of chaos, less likely to call for harsh measures and the further erosion of liberty in the name of security. It is the one shrewd thing one can do in present circumstances and it is to be celebrated.

So there is no single meaning in what is happening in London and elsewhere. But there are connections that we can make, and that we should make. We have a major problem with youth unemployment. There have already been cuts in services for young people. State education in poor areas is sometimes shockingly bad. Young people cannot afford adequate private housing and there is a shortage of council-built stock. Economic inequality has reached quite startling levels. All this is the consequence of decisions made by governments and there is little hope of rapid improvement. The same politicians now denouncing the mindless violence of the mob all supported a system of political economy that was as unstable as it was pernicious. They should have known that their policies would lead to disaster. They didn't know. Who then is more mindless?

The global economic crisis is at least as political as the riots we've seen in the last few days. It has lasted far longer and done far more damage. We need not draw a straight line from the decision to bail out the banks to what's going on now in London. But we must not lose sight of what both events tell us about our current condition. Those who want to see law and order restored must turn their attention to a menace that no amount of riot police will disperse; a social and political order that rewards vandalism and the looting of public property, so long as the perpetrators are sufficiently rich and powerful.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/08/201189165143946889.html

 

[ddraig]

Did the OB say that he shot at them, or was that just The Sun?

The claim that it was a police bullet in the radio was made pretty quickly after the incident.

and of course the law abiding coppers who were involved spoke up to put the record straight didn't they!
come on ffs

 

[Spymaster]

and of course the law abiding coppers who were involved spoke up to put the record straight didn't they!
come on ffs

Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.

I just wondered if the police actually ever said that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.

I just wondered if the police actually ever said that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.

You mean 'said in public' or 'said while anonymously briefing the media' ?

 

[ddraig]

Well, ultimately, yes, but that's not my point.

I just wondered if the police actually ever said that their guy was fired on, or if it was just media speculation.

splitting hairs
they tried their usual routine cover up and lie tactic and were caught out quicker than usual
murdering cretin cowards

 

[Streathamite]

You mean 'said in public' or 'said while anonymously briefing the media' ?

precisely. Typical met, and ESPESH tottenham OB. God, tottenham OB are utter cunts.

 

[Spymaster]

Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.

splitting hairs
they tried their usual routine cover up and lie tactic and were caught out quicker than usual

Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.

As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .

 

[Streathamite]

I'll wager you an amount it didn't

The bloke's best mate was murdered (still no arrests, local dibble done f-all about it), and he lived in fear for his life; what would you rather be - alive, and in possession of an illegal piece, or dead and law-abiding?

 

[Streathamite]

Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.

Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.

As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .

spy - the met in general, and the wankers in tottenham in particular, have a long record of smearing the victims of their f-ups. They even tried it with cynthia jarret, ffs! How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?

 

[Streathamite]

Haven't had a chance to read much more than that but one can assume the beans are appalled at the shattering of the "peace" in their oh soo vibrant and "integrated" urban living spaces.

And seriously what the fuck is wrong with looting curry's, pc world, footlocker etc oh right cos so many of the lefts idea of politics is moralising idealist shite with a bit of lip service to some abstract, pure form of class struggle.

Good article here, oddly enough not from the BBC

a) if you're referring to me as a 'bean' mate - jog on. it just happens to be where I live. not good,not bad, just my home.
and no, I have zero problem with robbing the retail outlets of megabucks international plc; I DO have a problem with them robbing the gaffs of small neighbourhood shopkeepers, petit bourgeois or no

 

[Streathamite]

The rioters are not responsible because they're just a product of their environment; we're not responsible as we're just a product of ours; the elite class aren't because they're just a product of theirs. It's just one giant mushy deterministic bowl.

But lets just exclude the rioters from it anyway, cause that makes sense, doesn't it?

f-me, are you actually brain-damaged?

 

[Spymaster]

How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?

That's just silly mate.

Their past record is certainly cause for healthy scepticism, but whilst you want to hang them high immediately, I want to know what happened.

So far all we know is that a bloke, seemingly armed, was shot, the only weapons fired were police ones, and that (spurious) media reports at the time suggested that Duggan shot a copper.

There's no evidence of an attempted cover up, so surely you want to know more?

 

[revol68]

a) if you're referring to me as a 'bean' mate - jog on. it just happens to be where I live. not good,not bad, just my home.
and no, I have zero problem with robbing the retail outlets of megabucks international plc; I DO have a problem with them robbing the gaffs of small neighbourhood shopkeepers, petit bourgeois or no

why on earth would you assume yourself to be a "bean", infact it was your posts I was nodding along to as you countered pk's crap.

there is no disagreement here, "bean" isn't about where you live, "man", it's a state of mind

 

[Streathamite]

That's because the people who live there are less law-abiding and more likely to be criminals.

Giles..

you are such an utter cretinous turd it is not worth wasting serious intellectual effort on you, but thank you for admitting that you think all working class youth are scum. your true colours....

 

[Kizmet]

How can you possibly give such leeway to people with this record for mendacity and dirty tricks?

Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to?

 

[Streathamite]

why on earth would you assume yourself to be a "bean", infact it was your posts I was nodding along to as you countered pk's crap.

there is no disagreement here, "bean" isn't about where you live, "man", it's a state of mind

fair enough mate. revol, I'm sorry for over-reacting, i'm just kinda upset and highly emotional, at what has happened to the place I care about. Please be patient with us, nerves are a tad frayed down here....

 

[Streathamite]

Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to for money because credit is impossible to get.

so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
Or to treat black youth like shit?
Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?

 

[Pickman's model]

Because they do the dangerous jobs that you are not prepared to?

i'd like to see them clean the inside of a sulphuric acid vat. without gloves. that's quite a dangerous job i'm not prepared to do.

 

[Kizmet]

so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
Or to treat black youth like shit?
Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?

No. But it makes judging them for it much more difficult.

Would they have to lie if they were not lied about?

 

[Kizmet]

i'd like to see them clean the inside of a sulphuric acid vat. without gloves. that's quite a dangerous job i'm not prepared to do.

How would they answer the phone when you ring them?

 

[Giles]

The bloke's best mate was murdered (still no arrests, local dibble done f-all about it), and he lived in fear for his life; what would you rather be - alive, and in possession of an illegal piece, or dead and law-abiding?

His mate was killed in a crowded nightclub, with a knife.

Presumably because of a mixture of dislike of the police, and fear of and loyalty to the murderer or his gang, no-one who witnessed it, or who knows who did it, will tell the police anything.What are they supposed to do if no-one will help them?

To say "the dibble done f-all about it" is just not true. If people want to stop the hold local gangsters have over their communities, then they need to spill the beans about perpetrators of crimes like this.

Giles..

 

[ddraig]

Officially Bernie. What may or may not have been said anonymously is just speculation. Where were the first reports of Duggan shooting first and who were they quoting? Is what I mean.

Well it's not splitting hairs. It's very relevant.

As far as I can see, plod had no reason to say he fired first. If the bloke had a gun and the CO19 guy thought he was posing a threat, he can shoot him regardless of whether or not he fires. So, have they genuinely tried to cover something up, or have they simply waited to establish facts? Obviously I expect answers here, to that, to be highly predictable .

do you concede that one of the very first facts that could and should have been established was that the man shot by police did not shoot "first" or at all?

 

[Kizmet]

No.

 

[Spymaster]

so that gives them licence to kill people, and then to lie and smear their way out of it? (cf. Tomlinson)
Or to treat black youth like shit?
Or take backhanders from Murdoch & co?

None of which of course, has any bearing on Duggan's shooting whatsoever.

As is always the case on these boards, there are plenty of people who WANT Duggan to have been wrongly shot. I don't. I hope that the officer that killed him acted correctly.

 

[Spymaster]

do you concede that one of the very first facts that could and should have been established was that the man shot by police did not shoot "first" or at all?

No. The first thing that should be established is whether the man shot, could reasonably have been considered to be posing a risk to anyone else.

 

[ddraig]

No. The first thing that should be established is whether the man shot, could reasonably have been considered to be posing a risk to anyone else.

well then you are a massive cunt and unbelievable cop cock sucking apologist

 

[Pickman's model]

well then you are a massive cunt and unbelievable cop cock sucking apologist

and you've only just realised that?